JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

OffTopic

Surf a Flood of random discussion.
7/12/2013 5:16:19 AM
28

Science Friday, Week 18: Why 0.999... = 1

Welcome to week 18 of Science Friday. I thought I would change up my lineup slightly by addressing an issue that I have personally seen arise a number of times on Bungie.net. It so happens it is mathematical in nature, so what better place than Science Friday. Today I am going to demonstrate that the repeating decimal 0.999... is, in fact, exactly equal to the number 1. There are two ways to prove this assertion. One involves using basic algebra and the other some simple calculus. I’ll prove it using both methods. If you are not familiar with the mathematics of calculus, do not fear. I will explain the details as I go on. Let’s start with the algebraic proof since it is shorter. I am going to try and avoid using typical textbook language. I’ll preserve mathematical integrity without sounding like a robot. Everyone wins. For this proof, we are going to assign 0.999... to the variable X. (In textbook language, “Let X = 0.999....”) The reason for this will become clear. So now we have X = 0.999... Since X is just a number, we can multiply it by another number and get yet another number as an answer. I am going to multiply X by 10 in this case, which can be written as 10X. Since X = 0.999..., we multiply 0.999... by 10 to find the number solution. We are all very comfortable with multiplying numbers by 10. Just add another zero to the number. However, this can be generalized even further. Move the decimal point one place to the right (which results in adding a zero for integers). Notice that just adding a zero does not work for decimals. This means 10X = 10(0.999...) = 9.99... Now we have two equations. One expresses the value of X, and the other expresses the value of 10X. X = 0.999... 10X = 9.99... What we are going to do now is subtract the first equation from the second one. Now, this step may seem a bit abstract, so let’s first do this with a concrete example. Below are two equations that we know to be true. 1 + 1 = 2 2 + 2 = 4 Let’s subtract the first equation from the first one. To do this, we first subtract 2 from 4, which equals 2. We then subtract 1 from 2, which equals 1. We do this once more (moving right to left), and we get 1 again. We are left with 1 + 1 = 2 The above equation is the difference between the two equations of 1 + 1 = 2 and 2 + 2 = 4. Notice that we got another equation that is still mathematically sound. While this does not formally prove that subtraction will yield a valid equation from two valid equations, it does provide an intuitive framework from which we can operate. So let’s return to our original equations X = 0.999... 10X = 9.99... We will follow the same procedure as we did before for the subtraction operation. 9.99... - 0.99... = 9 and 10X - X = 9X. In the end, we get 9X = 9 Let’s now solve for X by dividing both sides by 9. X = 9/9 = 1. Since we assigned X = 0.999..., and we have found that X = 1, therefore X = X or 0.999... = 1 This is a simple manipulation to prove that 0.999... = 1. We can also use basic calculus to prove the exact same thing. The crucial thing to understand is that, using calculus, we can get finite answers to infinite constructs. For example, the series (addition of many numbers) 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + ... and so on never ending is equal to a finite number: 2. 0.999... is nothing more than an infinite series like 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 and so on. The series that represents 0.999... is 0.9 + 0.09 + 0.009 + 0.0009 + ... (never ending) The formula for finding the sum of an infinite [i]geometric[/i] sequence is S = a1 / (1 - r) where S is the sum, a1 is the first term in the sequence of numbers, and r is a multiplier formally called the [i]common ratio[/i]. The common ratio is simply the number you must multiply one term in the sequence to get the next number. In this case, the common ratio is 1/10 since multiplying 0.9 by 1/10 equals 0.09. This works for the entire sequence. The derivation of the summation formula above is rather straightforward, but I will omit it here to prevent making this post too long. If you want to see the derivation, please comment below and I would be happy to provide it. So, if the repeating decimal 0.999... is expressed by the infinite series 0.9 + 0.09 + 0.009 + 0.0009 + ... (never ending), then we can find the summation of the infinite series, which will be a finite number. The summation will be the value of the repeating decimal 0.999.... Let’s use the formula. S = a1 / (1 - r) S = 0.9 / (1 - 1/10) = 0.9 / 0.9 = 1 The infinite series is equal to 1, and since the infinite series equals the repeating decimal 0.999..., 0.999... = 1 by the transitive property of equality. I hope these two proofs have clarified why 0.999... = 1 is a mathematical fact. If you have any questions about the proofs or derivation of the formula I used in the second proof, please do not hesitate to ask. Otherwise, leave your general comments and feedback below. See you next week for more Science Friday!

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • It's astonishing to me how many people refuse to believe this. Although sometimes it's an argument of semantics or wording

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

    1 Reply
    • No matter whether you think that 0.999=1 or not I don't see why the issue is really a big debate. If you're getting a degree in math I guess it could be an important topic for that kind of thing. But would you ever be like "yeah give me 0.999... croissants"

      Posting in language:

       

      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

    • OP tries to act like he is smart by using proofs on the internet. .999 doesn't = 1 and you are an idiot if you think so.

      Posting in language:

       

      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

      8 Replies
      • mfw

        Posting in language:

         

        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

      • Sorry, but that is not how mathematics works. You cannot subtract a repeating decimal from whole number with a repeating decimal to prove that a repeating decimal is a whole number. No. While I agree that for all practical purposes 0.999... = 1, it does not in the world of mathematics. Take a computer for example, a computer cannot hold the number 0.999... because it would require infinite amounts of memory to do so.

        Posting in language:

         

        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

        9 Replies
        • To me this phenomenon is an issue with base ten.

          Posting in language:

           

          Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

          2 Replies
          • 0.9=1 to infinite significant figures. Makes sense because there are significant figures if you round it at all it'll be 1.

            Posting in language:

             

            Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

            4 Replies
            • I don't trust any number I can't write.

              Posting in language:

               

              Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

              1 Reply
              • One particle of unobtainium has a nuclear reaction with the flux capacitor - carry the '2' - changing its atomic isotoner into a radioactive spider. F you, Science! That was my first thought when reading this. In all seriousness though awesome.

                Posting in language:

                 

                Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

              • Edited by Obi Wan Stevobi: 7/12/2013 1:50:46 PM
                Coming from a computer science angle, .999999999999999999999999999999 does not equal 1. Even though it could functionally equal 1 in any result producing equations within a program, if you have the following: X = .99999999999..; if(x==1){return true;}else{return false;} You will get false every time. That's why you never use a floating point number as an index for anything. Even if you are setting a float to a whole integer, eventually, a decimal error will occur. Granted, on a computer you don't actual have infinite repetition of the decimal, so we are talking about slightly different things, but even if the repeating 9 extends well past the precision of the math you are doing, it will never be equal to the integer 1.

                Posting in language:

                 

                Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

              • 10X-X= 9x Except x= .999..... So .9999x9=8.99 so 9X= 8.999... And even though 9.999-.999 is true, you cannot say 9X=9 and 9X=8.999, you multiply the variable by the number of times necessary (9) and get 9X= 8.999, so there is no way that 9X=9. Therefore .999... Doesn't equal 1.

                Posting in language:

                 

                Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                3 Replies
                • P.S. Mathematics was not built to sustain infinities. Multiplication is simply a shortcut as to not have to make the user add a set if the same numbers over and over again. You can simply move the decimal place over one for a finite number when multiplying by ten, but not for an infinite number. That's like multiplying a giraffe by ten and ending up with g.iraffe. Or giraffe0. With .9999999(...) you would need to add it onto itself nine more times, that's what multiplication is. But since those nines are going on forever, you can't quite have 1.9999998(...), 2.9999997, et cetera, until you get to the magic 9.999999(...) that you so brazenly entitle [i]10X[/i]. Just as trying to kick a lion to see how much it hates water doesn't work, math is not the right tool to use here. And since any infinity of anything isn't a number, even an infinite number, that would explain why math shouldn't be used. After all, you don't use it for your g.iraffes. "there's a time and place for everything, but not now." ~Professor Oak

                  Posting in language:

                   

                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                  4 Replies
                  • You lost me after welcome.

                    Posting in language:

                     

                    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                  • this is why i dont Maths.

                    Posting in language:

                     

                    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                  • Edited by E Sword of LORD: 7/12/2013 11:35:38 PM
                    Proving finite infinite. [i]...mmmm... wise this is...[/i] Especially when you factor in world domination.

                    Posting in language:

                     

                    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                  • Third proof: If 1/3 is .333... repeating, and 2/3 is .66... repeating, logic dictated that 3/3 is .999... repeating. However, 3/3 is also equal to 1, being of the form x/x. All these proofs are only true if the .999 is repeating. If it isn't infinitely long, they don't hold.

                    Posting in language:

                     

                    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                  • Edited by U920628: 7/12/2013 6:53:13 PM
                    [i] [/i]

                    Posting in language:

                     

                    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                    8 Replies
                    • We humans cannot even begin to comprehend the most simple concepts of infinity! Do you really believe that your primitive algebraic methods are capable of capturing this most holy number?

                      Posting in language:

                       

                      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                      2 Replies
                      • .999=.999 1=1 there's no need to make things ccomplicated

                        Posting in language:

                         

                        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                        1 Reply
                        • 0
                          Don't forget Cauchey sequences

                          Posting in language:

                           

                          Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                        • Edited by trolling69: 7/12/2013 8:13:30 AM
                          You are the most retarded person I have ever seen. The fact that 0.99999... = 1 should be obvious to anyone who passed basic algebra, yet you are bringing this subject up again even though everyone ALREADY F*CKING KNOWS. Also, the first two proofs are taken straight from Wikipedia, and you probably got the third one off somewhere on the internet as well because I have also seen it a number of times.

                          Posting in language:

                           

                          Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                          2 Replies
                          • 0
                            With that logic 1.99999... Equals 2

                            Posting in language:

                             

                            Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                            2 Replies
                            • Pic related. You could also do: 1/3 = 0.3 recurring and 1/3 + 1/3 = 2/3 = 0.6 recurring therefore 3/3 = 0.9 recurring

                              Posting in language:

                               

                              Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                              7 Replies
                              • Or you could do it the simple way which is stating 1/3 = .333... and 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1. So you can easily rewrite it as .333... + .333... + .333... = 1 which is simply .999... = 1. Simply put there are multiple proofs to .999... = 1 and if you say it doesn't you pretty much fail at math.

                                Posting in language:

                                 

                                Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                              • Why are you creating this pointless threads? "oh heres a fact" no discussion value at all. ".999...=1 here is why" Ok?

                                Posting in language:

                                 

                                Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                                6 Replies
                                • I'm gonna go ahead and link this thread whenever this debate pops up. Nice explanation.

                                  Posting in language:

                                   

                                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                                  1 Reply
                                  You are not allowed to view this content.
                                  ;
                                  preload icon
                                  preload icon
                                  preload icon