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Изменено (kellygreen45):
1/30/2018 3:32:43 PM
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Cayde is a particular personality type. Someone who is a risk-taker. Extremely creative...and has little respect for authority or convention. He's like a race car that has been set up to be "loose". In certain situations is extremely fast and extremely effective. In other situations its a good way to kill yourself and people in the stands.
In The Taken King...we were shown only the "high reward" aspect of Cayde's character. He comes up with the outside-the-box idea that gets us past Oryx's defenses, onto the Dreadnaught, and ultimately helps us win the war.
In Destiny 2s campaign...where' shown BOTH the high-risk and high reward aspects of it. He (once again) comes up with a vital, creative idea to win....but runs off by himself to get what he needs...and gets himself trapped. Without the help of Failsafe...and our Guardian...he likely would have been trapped there for centuries...if not forever.
But we also see the high-reward. He uses a chicken as a means to quietly insert back into the City without alerting Cabal guards...and his teleporter got us back onto the Cabal flagship to take on Ghaul.
Some people want heroes that are like cardboard cut-outs. They are like Superman or Captain America. More like an idea or ideal...than a real person. But some of us find those portrayals boring because we realize that no real person is actually like that. Every REAL person has quirks and flaws that HUMANIZE them.
Those often tend to be the heroes that people actually most strongly identify with. Batman's dark personality and walking the line between justice and revenge. Detective and vigilante. Spider-man and Deadpool's irreverent humor. Classic X-men's Cyclops' hypocritical yes-man/golden-boy image. Wolverine's tendency to rage, struggle to keep his instinct to kill in check...while dealing with his love for someone else's woman.
One of the things that Destiny 2 did right that Destiny 1 didn't...is that it HUMANIZED the Vanguard.
You see Zavala's stubborn rigidity, and lack of creativity. But also his awareness of it, and that he needs Cayde's creativity to make up for what he lacks. (That's how good leaders operate in the real world...they surround themselves with talented people...and then listen to them.)
You see Ikora's fearlessness and ferociousness crumble when she's forced to confront (again) the fear of death. She has to find her courage again. She has to rediscover what she stand for...what she cares for....what she is willing to sacrifice for.
You see in Hawethorne an natural leader who is being frustrated by hierarchy of the City. She a warrior that is not being allowed to fight...and all that frustrated aggression and determination comes out sideways in disruptive behavior. Until that hierarchy collapses, and she's finally given room to step into a leadership role...and to fight.
Part of enjoying a story, is to give it room for the characters to evolve the way THEY want to...and that the writers want them to.
And not hold them slave to your expectations and wishes. Because---unless you're a writer yourself----they'll often be taken in directions that are more interesting that what you could have imagined for them.
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Изменено (JKLCSM): 2/1/2018 8:54:31 AMI would probably say inserting present day human elements into the characters was a mistake, and it isn't "Flanderisation" it is "Dragon Ball Evo'd". Why would you have present day human elements where most of these vulnerabilities are exposed, in a time of ongoing war against aliens? These elements are only usually present in times of peace when people are arguing over opinions rather than trying to survive and win a war. You would think that the Vanguard having been around for centuries having seen countless deaths of fallen comrades would be a bit tougher and a bit more street smart than that. But no they decide in order to engage the younger generation and make them relate to the character they had to insert a human element like you described, which is exactly what they did with Dragon Ball Evo. And look at how that movie panned out.
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You [i]see[/i] those things in D2... but it's for a few seconds. There Is [i]more[/i] story to D2 than in D1, but it still isn't very good. Sure. I caught the drift about Zavala's rigidity. But it lasted all of like 2 seconds. There was no deeper exploration into his character. No missions where we see HIM, actual Zavala actually doing anything or experiencing anything. Nothing but a few cut scenes here and there. Other than that? The general idea of the story on Titan? "Go here. Restore power." Cayde? Great. He's a cool character, but acting like a comic relief renegade is some kind of revolutionary example of characterization? No. It isn't. There's a reason people always compare him to Deadpool. Characters like this are done all the time. Everything you said about him is correct, but it really isn't deeper than that. Wow, he's an ace in the hole and makes you laugh. It did NOTHING to add to the overall story arc of the campaign or anywhere else. Ikora came [i]really[/i] close to something deep or meaningful. Like Zavala, she questioned what it meant to be a guardian without the Light. For 2 seconds. All of this happened so quickly if you blinked you'd miss it. A few cutscenes and some comm chatter. There really was nothing to the story beyond getting the band back together. They lost their light and they are sad or mad about it. I mean, damn, I thought this Red War was going to span a [i]long[/i] story arc, possibly pushing toward the DLCs with it. Where we'd be on the outskirts, and go through these journeys that would bring us closer to these characters across many many missions. To see who they really are in any given moment. Instead, they[i][b]are[/b][/i] cardboard cutouts. They are exactly that. Zavala, the duty bound warrior. Cayde, the zany rogue/renegade. Ikora, the intellectual mage. Sprinkle in some "I am mad/sad/vengeful about losing my light", then toss in the "we need to be a fireteam" storyline and BOOM. You have the most cliche filled cliche possible. Had they gone deeper with the story? Took a more complex direction with narrative? Sure. We [i]might[/i] have seen how each of them was an individual and how they break the mold. Maybe went on a side mission with Cayde and gotten in a tough spot with him. He acts all out of character and eventually explains the story of why [i]he[/i] became the vanguard. Maybe we see some ups and downs with him. He saves us. We save him. We see how insane he is. Etc. I mean, god damn, these are supposed to be the best of the best in the Vanguard, and the greatest idea they come up with is A). Work as a fireteam, and B). Sneak back in to the city and lead an assault. Really? That's it? Awesome. They are [i]character templates[/i]. Cliche's. Because we haven't been anywhere deeper to know who they are. I know who Yennifer is. I know who Trevor and Franklin are. I know Ellie and Joel. Fxck I even know who Soap fxcking McTavish is. And Commander Price. I know Aloy. I dunno who Zavala is. A duty bound titan. A generic Warrior/Templar character who gets sad the moment his powers are gone. I wouldn't let him hold my wallet. Wouldn't let him crash on my couch. Because I dunno who the fxck he is. I haven't experienced shit with Zavala except a couple cutscenes and a bunch of "super serious" comm chatter. Because he's a cliche. A cutout that [i]still[/i], stands in the same fxcking spot like he always used to.
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Beautifully stated, and I never saw it that way.
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I agree with you on Cayde. We are shown the loose cannon bit. He does fail. I’m not arguing that. But that failure has next to no impact on him. He remains just as goofy and comedic as he has been. I’m not saying that every time something happens a character’s personality needs to change. But after his little ‘arc’ in the main story ends, he becomes a caricature.
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I actually agree with @kellygreen2 here. I real life, people (especially ones in powerful/important positions) usually don't show much emotion. Just think how corny sitcoms are when everyone is an overblown cartoon version of how people truly are. true emotions come from small slips of our personality. Here's an example to add to what @kellygreen2 was explaining, during pyramidion strike when Ikora asks about Asher's fireteam, he something like. "we were together, until we weren't". He talks around the fact that he feels guilty that he hired them, & feels responsible for their deaths. This is how someone like Asher would truly act verse some sad dialog that most writers would throw at us. Anyways, my point is: I think characters screaming at each other, showing a lot of PDA, having life changing epiphanies, etc, is too spoon fed to the viewer & is unrealistic. This is all just my personal opinion. Good post though. I like a discussion/criticism without all the juvenile 'bungo sux, everything is trash, blam the devs'
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Again, disagree. Have you read some of the collectibles that come from the chests he left out in the wild for the weekly Flashpoint? Although he cannot remember the details, they all point to him becoming an Exo against his will, and under pretty tragic circumstances. His humor is a defense mechanism to keep his emotions at a comfortable distance...and perhaps to help him keep his sanity. But if you look at his interactions with people, its clear that his emotions run deeper than he lets on. During the D1 quest to become a Nightstalker hunter, he hid his concern for his missing friend behind jokes about wanting to get his winnings from a gambling debt. During the final assault on the City to free The Traveller, he opens the door slightly to let our Guardian know that he is uncomfortable with goodbyes (and loss)....but then closes the door quickly and hides his emotions by saying that he wants us to survive because "I need someone to get my jokes.' The façade cracks entirely (though only briefly) on Nessus, when he hears that Ikora is missing, and has to start thinking about what might have happened to him. Nathan Fillion (the great actor that he is) puts the PERFECT hint of sadness and fear in Cayde's voice when he recalls that she would have gone to Io in a situation like this. As I said. Let the characters BE THEMSELVES...rather than demanding that they be what you want them to be. Cayde isn't a caricature. He's actually the most three-dimensional, humanized character in the entire franchise. I can say that because I KNOW people who have personalities very similar to his....and Fillion does a wonderful job of bringing him to life.
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You know, that’s a fair point. I see that now. But the feeling still remains that Cayde has the most potential to go down this road. What you attribute to a 3-Dimensional character could easily be overblown and become a caricature. Cayde has good moments. He’s a nuanced and interesting character. But becoming flanderized is a very real, very ominous possibility for him because of how much of his character revolves around humor regardless of intent. I really hope you’re right. But there’s a feeling nagging at me that this is all gonna go downhill soon.
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But that’s where the artistry is. To know where that line is, and to be willing to get close enough to that line that the character feels real... but stay short of it. While knowing that not everyone is going to agree with your assessment of where that line actually is.
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The stance Bungie seem to be taking on Lore vs Folklore doesn’t make me confident that they’re going down the right path story-wise. Flanderization is such an easy method to fall into. You’re right about the line. The problem comes when writers are complicit with going way past the line just to make the extra buck. And that’s not even specifically a writer’s fault. Maybe they’ve been ordered by management. But the capability is there. And that makes me nervous.
