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originally posted in: Savathun is Good
9/3/2022 4:08:14 PM
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No, she's not good. She is bad, she's just charming and manipulative. She's just realized that to achieve her goal, she's gonna have to be like us, having both light and dark. So she's playing the game trying to do that. She's a villain that actually seems to learn from watching other villains fail, and adapting.
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    AntiLukewarm
    AntiLukewarm

    AntiLukewarm on YouTube - old

    She seemed to learn pretty well. And the traveler chose her right? So what are the implications of that?

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  • Edited by whateverman7: 9/3/2022 6:31:49 PM
    The traveler 'chose' her because the traveler is all about self preservation, and at the time it seemed she was the best option to protect it. That's the only reason we exist. Traveler created us to protect it from the darkness after Rasputin shot it. Anyway, the traveler has lost confidence in us protecting it because of us using the darkness so much. It's worried we will turn on it. It went to savathun's throne world to hide. That helped her because it helped her get closer to her goals of being so powerful that she doesn't have to play the light/dark game anymore, and so she can rule above it all. As for implications: it's just another example of bungie showing in the story that light doesn't mean good, and dark doesn't mean bad. It's what you do with those powers that determine good/bad.

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  • Incorrect. You forget that the Ghosts were made as the Traveler fell into a coma during the Collapse, an event which Savathun took part in, [i]centuries[/i] ago. It made a Ghost for someone who was, at the time, working against it. So using what is happening presently for a decision made centuries ago doesn’t work. Also, the Traveler didn’t go to the Throneworld. It was being pulled. That’s why when we stopped the ritual, it went back. Also, Rasputin never shot the Traveler. The D1 lore card was about [i]if[/i] it tried to leave. We know it stayed and fought because that’s how the Awoken were made

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  • Edited by whateverman7: 9/4/2022 4:28:23 PM
    I mentioned nothing about ghosts. But yea, ghosts were made to make us, which was for protection. That's the original reason for us. The traveler did choose to go to the throne world. Yes, she was 'taking' it, but it was allowing her to do it. Our ghost keeps mentioning this during the mission. Rasputin did shoot the traveler.

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  • Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 9/4/2022 5:14:57 AM
    You don’t have to. You said she picked savathun over us because we started to use darkness powers. Chronologically that’s incorrect. Her Ghost was made centuries before. You can’t use cause and effect to make that argument. The Traveler allowing people to do things isn’t it choosing her over us. That’s assuming and conflating. Quote me where it says he did. Because his lore card about that was just preplanning in case it might happen. Far as we know, it stayed and fought. Remember, the beam of Light that hit the Darkness thing outside of Mara’s ship shows it was fighting. So, source?

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  • Edited by whateverman7: 9/4/2022 4:30:56 PM
    Traveler did pick savathun over us cause of the darkness. Our use of the darkness scares the traveler, so it went with savathun. Yes, her ghost was made before ours, but it was made before she made the choice to follow the darkness. Once her and her sisters did that, traveler left them to look for other protectors. Yes it is. The same way the traveler stopped ghaul's plan, it could have stopped savathun's. It didn't cause it was looking out for itself. And figured that was the best way to protect itself. Savathun played a part in that cause she knows how to manipulate. I'll have to look for it, but it is established ras -blam!- the traveler. Traveler stayed and fought because it was injured, and couldn't leave. That was the whole point of ras shooting it. It was going to leave cause the darkness was coming and ras prevented it. That's why there was a hole in the traveler until it fully healed. Source is the game. The lore is in the game.

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  • Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 9/4/2022 5:36:00 PM
    Blind assumption. You have no idea what it thinks. No, her Ghost was made the same time as ours. During the Collapse. Ghosts are made from its very consciousness. So you just made that up. Traveler stopped Ghaul because no one else could. We can’t fight a 1000 foot tall being made of Light. The Traveler was being pulled into the throneworld by Savathun, if it wanted to be there, it would of stayed. If you going to say it can do things and that it wants to be there, you need to have an explanation as to why it chose to leave then. Do you have one? No, which should tell you it didn’t want to be there. It was never established. It’s a D1 lore card about what it will do if it tries to leave. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-rasputin-5?highlight=Rasputin+5 That’s it. That’s all we know about Rasputin having a plan to attack it. Not only is there no lore to say Rasputin shot the Traveler, the Travelers D1 lore talked about it deciding to stay here and fight. It also talks about the fight and being injured, zero mention of Rasputin. Also the D2 lorebook from the Winnower says the same thing. That it choose to stand here and fight. So again, it’s never been established, it was just assumed. That’s why you need to keep track of things to quote. You start assuming and making assumptions based on assumptions and you’ll just confuse yourself.

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  • Edited by whateverman7: 9/4/2022 6:20:23 PM
    Of course I don't know what it thinks, I'm going off what bungie has put in the game. From lore, our ghost, other characters, etc, all roads are pointing to that. All ghosts weren't made at the same time. The same way it stopped ghaul, it could've stopped going with savathun. I explained why it was going there. Our darkness usage, protection, and savathun's manipulation. The lore points to ras shooting the traveler and it fighting because it couldn't leave. It had no choice but to fight then. I'm not looking at the lore right now, but I will and get back to you with examples showing that. Also, I apologize for all the edits, I'm on my phone and having to go back and forth to reply to everything said.

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  • Peoples assumptions about an unknown are just that, assumptions. That’s also in the lore. Ghosts were made at the same time, show me otherwise. If it wanted to be there, killing savathun wouldn’t of stopped it. The lore doesn’t but Go ahead and find it. So you got to find Rasputin shooting the traveler and ghosts being made before the collapse. Good luck!

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  • Edited by whateverman7: 9/4/2022 11:35:58 PM
    You're making assumptions as well, they just disagree with mine. No one knows if all ghosts were made at once or over a period of time, but since Immaru is known as one of the oldest, people assume it's the latter. If they were made at the same time, none would be older than the others, they would be the same age. When we killed savathun, the traveler 'woke up' out of her manipulation. She was manipulating it into thinking being with her was the best thing. Enhancing those thoughts. That stopped when she did. That's why it came back. The fact it allowed itself to be taken in the first place shows those thoughts were there. I'll get back to you on the ras stuff.

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  • Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 9/4/2022 11:47:37 PM
    I mean assumptions in the lore. IE Ghosts thought Darkness was evil, despite having zero actual knowledge. As it gets explained later, Darkness is neutral, the users are what’s evil. In this discussion no, I use lore. Hence the citations. You are not, hence the lack of citations. We have lore from the Ghosts as they were made. Their creation process disproves the possibility of Immaru being made beforehand. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-we-before-us?highlight=We+before+us Same time doesn’t mean instant, millions of Ghosts were made. If Immaru formed half a second before anyone else, he would be first. Ah, so now you’re changing from it wanted to be there cause we use darkness to it was partially mentally manipulated to wanting to be there despite already wanting to be and it left anyway despite wanting to be there. That sounds like mishmash to me.

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  • Edited by whateverman7: 9/5/2022 4:30:22 AM
    I'm using the info from lore. I'll get back to you with specifics, I'm not looking at that right now. I'm drinking, gaming, enjoying the day off. That is a collection of ghost stories, not a chronological history. Going off lore, we know the traveler went to the hive first. We know it left them once the sisters went farther towards the deep. No one knows if it had ghosts then. Going off the fact that so many ghosts eventually became hive ghosts and that Immaru is one of the oldest, it makes sense there were some ghosts then. Especially going off the fact many thought darkness was evil and the hive were working with the darkness, as you stated. If they thought that, so many wouldn't have went and joined the hive willingly as they did. Even some of them felt their 'guardian' wasn't human and on earth, but somewhere in the stars and something else. (Look at lucent tales). I haven't changed anything. I've stated the same reasons each time. You want a definite answer, which bungie hasn't put in game yet. But the things they have put in game point to the traveler chose to go to savathun's world. Partially due to our darkness usage, partially cause of savathun's influence, and cause of self preservation.

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  • ‘Lore is wrong, I know lore I’m right can’t prove it’ Okie dokie pal. 👍🏻

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  • And yet I've used lore to prove my points so far about ghosts. And will about ras. 👍

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  • What lore says Ghosts were made before the Collapse? Lol

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  • What lore says they weren't? Like I said: you want the lore to specifically lay it out for you, so you ignore the breadcrumbs leading to whatever it is that is laid out. Ex: we didn't know ras created siva until d2, but the signs were there in d1. You are correct, currently there are no entries that specifically say ghosts were created before the collapse, but there aren't any that say they weren't. The ones talking about being born are ours, the guardians, so that is all they can reflect on. But there are signs that ghosts were made before then. We do know the traveler went to the world of the sisters first with the intention of making them 'guardians'. So if that's the case, why wouldn't there be ghosts already? Another sign pointing to that is Immaru being one of the oldest. Another sign pointing to that is all the current guardian ghosts know about the darkness, what happened with the hive, and the moon; yet when savathun got the light, there were however many ghosts ready to join her. Why would our ghosts do that knowing what they knew? Why would they feel humans, exos, nor awoken (which all have a connection to humans) weren't the beings they were created for? Especially since we know no new ghosts have been created since the collapse.

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  • What lore says we aren’t the Gardner? So according to you, I’m right and you have to prove me wrong. Have fun with that. Thinking like that you can say anything that hasn’t been expressly disproven is true. That’s an absurd line of reasoning and extremely intellectually dishonest. Also, Rasputin didn’t make it. Humans did. He could control it. The Traveler never landed on the planet to meet the Sisters. Why would it make Ghosts beforehand? We know how they are made. Pieces of the Travelers own consciousness. So yeah, not lore at all my dude. That’s pure fan fiction.

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  • Edited by whateverman7: 9/6/2022 4:36:57 AM
    When lore has shown we aren't the gardener, trying to make that an example is laughable. I'm not just saying anything just to say it though like you did as an example. I'm saying things that the lore points to. Nothing in d1 said ras used it to kill the iron lords, but signs pointed to that. We didn't find out it was true till d2. The traveler was on the way to the sister's world, in fact it was close to it. The leviathan in d1 told us that. And the campaign in d2 told us that as well. If Immaru is one of the oldest, that would lead you to think the traveler had ghosts for them. Again, the ghosts we have know about the hive and darkness, why would they willing to be their ghosts? They wouldn't. Just listen to how our ghost talked during the campaign. Which points to the traveler having made them ghosts, just like he made ours. Just like the exo stranger was hinted at being Ana's sister early, but wasn't specified till d2. They are laying hints about things, then revealing them later. You are waiting for the reveal, ignoring the hints, while I'm not. We both are using lore. We'll see though. They got more story to tell. If I'm incorrect, I have no problem saying so.

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  • Doesn’t point to anything. To make Ghosts the Traveler has to [i]lose[/i] parts of its mind. Traveler didn’t even arrive on Fundament. So saying it made Ghosts, made them ahead of time and then hid them for eons while running. Using nothing but it wanted to chose them as support. Yeah. Fan fiction.

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  • Edited by whateverman7: 9/6/2022 4:06:21 PM
    To make OUR ghosts, the traveler did that. The majority of info we have about ghosts is from our ghosts perspective. We know very little about how the hive ghosts were made, about them period. The lil info we know comes from the lucent lore books. But it doesn't talk about their creation, just their interacting with the hive, and feelings they had about not wanting to revive humans. I didn't say it arrived there, I said got close. Which the darkness and the leviathan have said. It was on the way to choose the sisters first. You may be right, it might all be in my head, we'll see. It's been fun, have a great reset and day guardian.

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  • Now you’re trying to say they are made differently? Despite acknowledging nothing in the lore even suggests otherwise. You want to claim they were made differently and before the rest. Because otherwise your idea falls flat. So make an assumption and justify it with even more assumptions. And you call that lore? Yeah dude, it’s in your head.

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