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Edited by Wes: 9/2/2022 3:42:46 PM
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Wes
Wes

I was with you at first, but then you said "The [i]only[/i] reason..." Yes. Good players who just want to stomp others exist. No debating that. Yes. Casual players who just want a competetive match exist. No debating that either. But guess who else exists? Good players who just want to see build variety and strong connections in their matches. Good players who just want a space where they can play with lesser skilled friends. Casual players that just straight up don't want to try and improve, whether the algorithm be SBMM or CBMM, and just do their bounties and leave, if that. All those groups exists as well (probably more). Limiting the discussion to the first two has been happening for years and HASN'T HELPED. Not even a little bit. This isn't a black and white "predatory or fair" discussion. Even Bungie acknowledged the drawbacks higher skilled players are experiencing the the new system, and yet everyone here is ignoring it entirely and sticking to that BS false dichotomy. Is anyone ever going to learn? At this point I think not. I'm just going to hope Bungie keeps taking in more and more data and really tunes the current algorithm as best as possible.
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  • Edited by Desolator0: 9/3/2022 6:45:41 AM
    [quote]All those groups exists as well (probably more). Limiting the discussion to the first two has been happening for years and HASN'T HELPED. Not even a little bit. This isn't a black and white "predatory or fair" discussion.[/quote] Love the subtle kellygreen45 callout. He's managed to hoodwink most people on these forums into a false dichotomy and now the conversation around SBMM vs. CBMM has completely and utterly devolved into one of the most bitter name-calling argument sessions that I've ever seen on these forums. Thank God someone here has reason and sense.

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  • Bungie and the sweats ignored the cries of the masses when they removed sbmm a year and a half ago. There are literally hundreds and maybe thousands of posts begging bungie to turn back on sbmm when they implemented cbmm and i personally contrubuted 5 posts myself.. But it's funny how you ignore that.

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  • 2
    Wow. Three people in one post that missed my point entirely.

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  • You can still play with your lesser skilled friends and win. Your team will have communication and coordination, whereas the other team won't. Destiny is pretty balanced atm, so there's plenty of build and playstyle variety (at least on console). The newest items are used slightly more often, but that's because they're new and not necessarily because they're better. The only players I've seen lagging have been in fireteams, and Bungie has already announced they're addressing this issue. Who cares if casuals don't want to improve? As long as the're playing, I dont care. The more popular Crucible becomes, the more money gets spent on it to improve it for better players.

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  • 2
    Not really. If a bottom 10% steps into a top 10% lobby and SBMM is working appropriately, that bottom 10% player is screwed. No coordination will fix that. As far as build variety, that variety diminishes the higher up the skill bracket you go. That is a fact. The higher up you are, the more punished you are for not only mistakes, but also inadequacies in your loadout. Lastly, I agree. I literally don't care if someone wants to improve. What I'm saying is that player does exist. We aren't in a world where every SBMM supporter is a casual trying to improve and everyone against is a sweaty try hard just wanting to farm. This community is not black and white. It is shades of grey, and I'm tired of people pretending like it isn't.

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  • If a bottom 10% steps into a top 10% lobby, then SBMM is not working.

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  • 2
    It is if the bottom 10% and top 10% player are friends and in a pre-made.

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  • Youre probably right about the bottom 10% in a top 10% lobby. It really depends on the map, team chemistry, coordination, opponents, etc. A coordinated fireteam is tough, regardless of skill, but some odds are really, really steep. I wouldn't revert SBMM just for this case, though. Maybe incorporate an averaged fireteam skill rating? There's been plenty of build variety in the games I've played, and I've played quite a bit this season (more than the past two seasons combined). I'm not saying you're wrong. We're probably in different skill brackets or something. You're absolutely right about the generalizations being thrown around. Bad players are wrong because they're bad. Good players are wrong because they're good.

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  • 3
    I couldn't tell you. My experience so far has mostly been watching my friends since I've been working so much. The better ones have seen almost zero build variety. One of them takes several minutes just to find a match, assuming it actually does. Sometimes it fails and kicks him out after 3 for 4 minutes. He just stopped playing control because of that. I don't know what bracket you're in, but he's easily top 1%, almost exclusively solo queue. Easily the best player I know. So the lack of build variety certainly exists, but of course not everyone has the same experience, even those in the same skill brackets because of platform, region/connection, etc. We can only hope Bungie gets good data and tweaks it here and there. I'll be testing the changes more myself this weekend now that my project has finished at work. So wish me luck. Maybe I'll be in the same boat as you.

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  • How did every good player said... Ah yes, adapt and gg.

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  • 2
    Seems you missed my entire point as well.

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  • Oh and people do learn. Then they matched with players of their current skill level.

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  • Players in middle skill pool was affected by sweats as well. I've been in few matches but it's feel just right. Matches today doesn't feel like OP from my side or I'm been squashed. It's called balance!

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  • Control is the only playlist with SBMM. If they want to test builds and such, they can jump into Rumble.

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  • Edited by Wes: 9/2/2022 7:26:25 PM
    4
    That same logic didn't work the other way when comp was SBMM now did it? "Comp has SBMM. If you want a competetive match, go play comp." Pretty sure the response to that speaks for itself, considering comp has gotten the same amount of support as quickplay from Bungie.

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  • I'm honestly not even sure what you're trying to say here.

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  • 3
    What I'm saying is both the pure CBMM and pure SBMM arguments have boatloads of hypocrisy as their foundation, and their narrators so blinded by their pride that they are not only blind to their own hypocrisy, but can't even identify a nuanced solution when it is presented to them. Case in point: You say "Control is the only playlist to have SBMM. If you want to test builds, go somewhere else." For years now, comp has had SBMM. That ENTIRE time, it could easily be, and has been, argued that "Comp has SBMM. If you want a competetive match, go there." But the SBMM crowd didn't like that answer, which is odd because comp hasn't gotten any less support than control has, so that can't be the issue. So why is it the higher skilled players should have to go somewhere else to play the game what they would consider "casually" when other players never did that when they had the option for YEARS? Kinda hypocritical, no?

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  • I meant non-comp playlists. That was my bad for forgetting to include that. There's still Rumble and the weekly rotating pvp gametype every week. So while I left out a crucial part of my statement, it doesn't change the fact that builds can still be tested in two different CBMM playlists available right now in game. People wanted SBMM back because ever since it was removed, the game turned into sweatlords just stomping all over less skilled players to artificially pad their KDs. Crucible saw a pretty steady decline in participation, getting as low as 9% participation during peak hours sometimes. Now with SBMM reintroduced, Crucible has seen far more people participating. So to say it's bad for the game is objectively wrong.

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  • 2
    I never said it was bad for the game. It needs to in the game [i]in some form[/i]. Why should we settle for a half-baked form of SBMM, or worse an incredibly rigid form of SBMM, when things like dedicated servers, fireteam exceptions/preferential matching, etc. have been demonstrated to not only work in other games, but flourish in them when used appropriately and in conjunction with one another? This current form of SBMM lacks the foundation other games use to find success with it. Other games use dedicated servers, pre-made group matching, and relatively loose skill matching (in-less competetive modes) to offset the downsides of traditional SBMM, essentially taking a nuanced approach to the problem. Bungie said they're doing that in their own way, yes. But it hasn't been done [i]yet[/i], and because of that, the problems are apparent.

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  • It's not half baked just because you say it is. sbmm is working just fine.

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  • Edited by Wes: 9/3/2022 2:26:59 AM
    2
    SBMM without pre-made team matching isn't half-baked? SBMM without dedicated servers isn't half-baked? SBMM without any sort of incentive to play in higher skill tiers isn't half baked? Since when? There's a reason why the most successful games with SBMM have [i]at least[/i] the top two things I mentioned. If you even read that far, because from the looks of it you only read to the second paragraph in my post.

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  • Ive always viewed control as testing grounds for dumb builds ive wanted to try

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  • Good points, as a fairly above average player I can't say I noticed much change in terms of team balancing and leaving, in fact I think the latter has gotten worse...

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  • No one is listening to the usual excuses anymore. You’ll have to come up with some other excuse to get east matches.

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  • 3
    I've never seen a point fly above someone's head so fast before in my life. I'm not even defending CBMM or even saying SBMM is bad, and here you are assuming I am.

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