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It is so disappointing to see how many just do not understand the point of these changes. For me simply being able to choose CR w/o the need to use Geomags and build around Getaway artist has been phenomenal. Least mentioning all the builds I have in mind to create. Now all I want is the load out feature they have shown off.
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People like the idea of change, and newness. The reality of it is a different story.
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Quite.
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Yeah, they kinda do. Chaos Reach is in the same boat as Thundercrash--it requires an Exotic just to do close to the same damage as Novabomb, Blade Barrage, and Gathering Storm. Daybreak is laughably weak, even with Dawn Chorus, ever since they removed Dawn Chorus' damage buff for Daybreak. 5 Solar Grenades with Sunbracers, and Touch of Flame, can deal almost twice the max damage you can get out of Daybreak with Dawn Chorus equipped. And with the removal of Everlasting Fire, it's not good for ad clear anymore either, even with Ember of combustion. They'd be better off just replacing Daybreak with Radiance from D1 (without self rez, obviously). Flying around throwing Solar Grenades is more efficient than Daybreak.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 8/31/2022 1:58:32 PMThis game isn’t a hero shooter. It’s an action-RPG. So the expectation that all the subclasses should do the same things and behave the same way isn’t a realistic one. Chaos Reach does extremely high burst damage, while also doing very respectable sustained damage on a single target. While Nova Bomb and Blade Barrage are AoE supers. A balance of crowd control and critical target damage. While Chaos Reach is a critical target damage specialist. Same with Dawnblade. Part of the problem here is that many of you fight the design intent of these supers, and then get frustrated when you struggle. It subclass is supposed to have its own identity, and it’s own purpose in the game. They are supposed to play differently and supposed to be better at somethings and worse at others compared to one another. That’s not an oversight, that was part of the purpose of doing all this.
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Edited by Soul_Eater_42: 8/31/2022 2:09:23 PMBut if Chaos Reach is a critical target damage super, whereas Novabomb and Blade Barrage are critical target damage [b]and[/b] AoE Supers, then wouldn't it logically make more sense for Chaos Reach to do more base damage than them, not less? Otherwise, what's the point of Chaos Reach even being a Super?
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Edited by kellygreen45: 8/31/2022 2:24:51 PMNo. Because Chaos applies it’s damage faster, more accurately and more reliably. Do you want to know how many times over the years I’ve WHIFFED on a Slovabomb attack because the enemy teleported or did something else to break line of attack and tracking? Oh, and then there’s the Garden of Salvation boss who just OUTRAN the damn thing! Then I’ve had issues with BB because some of the blade hit objects either near me as I cast it, or in route…and then there’s the spread of the blades. In a well designed RPG, power comes with a price. You get an advantage in one area, while you get a disadvantage in another. That’s how you wind up with a well-tuned game where there is no clear “best build” for every situation and a game with more long term replay value.
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[quote]No. Because Chaos applies it’s damage faster, more accurately and more reliably. Do you want to know how many times over the years I’ve WHIFFED on a Slovabomb attack because the enemy teleported or did something else to break line of attack and tracking? Oh, and then there’s the Garden of Salvation boss who just OUTRAN the damn thing! Then I’ve had issues with BB because some of the blade hit objects either near me as I cast it, or in route…and then there’s the spread of the blades. In a well designed RPG, power comes with a price. You get an advantage in one area, while you get a disadvantage in another. That’s how you wind up with a well-tuned game where there is no clear “best build” for every situation and a game with more long term replay value.[/quote] You're saying that Chaos Reach applies damage faster and more reliably than Blade Barrage and Nova Bomb??? Have you ever actually used Chaos Reach? Do you know how long it takes to apply its damage vs BB or Nova??? You throw BB and then have about 7 seconds to use a heavy weapon while CR is still applying its damage. I also didn't realize people were struggling so badly to hit their target with BB, I think that sounds like a you problem.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 9/1/2022 4:11:59 PMYes. Have you ever missed with Cataclysm because your target teleported and broke tracking? Or a mob stepped in the way, and it locked onto them instead? Or how about having it detonate due to nearby geometry, or a mob that unexpectedly got in your face during the activation animation…and you damage yourself with it? Or better yet missed, because your target literally out ran it. Had that happen in a boss fight in Garden of Salvation. Gave everyone on the raid team a good laugh. Whereas in Gambit, Chaos Reach with GeoMags was boss-melting meta for years.
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[quote]Yes. Have you ever missed with Cataclysm because your target teleported and broke tracking? Or a mob stepped in the way, and it locked onto them instead? Or how about having it detonate due to nearby geometry, or a mob that unexpectedly got in your face during the activation animation…and you damage yourself with it? Or better yet missed, because your target literally out ran it. Had that happen in a boss fight in Garden of Salvation. Gave everyone on the raid team a good laugh. Whereas in Gambit, Chaos Reach with GeoMags was boss-melting meta for years.[/quote] Yes, I can’t say it’s never happened but it’s certainly not common. Cataclysm isn’t suitable for the fight you’re talking about it Garden and someone on your raid team should have warned you. But in general it’s not a problem and I have pretty good aim with my slova-bomb. Cataclysm also should have some drawbacks as it’s so versatile, it can do boss damage or clear a mob. That still doesn’t address the comparison to blade barrage which is even faster than cataclysm and doesn’t have to worry about those things. They can push out the same damage in a small fraction of the time it takes to use chaos letting them deal all kinds of damage with heavy weapons/grenades while chaos is still trying to get its damage in. Chaos should either do more damage or do the same damage as now in a shorter period to make it more level with the damage other classes can do. It’s supposed to be the DPS class for warlock.
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It’s a problem. You’ve just adapted your play to accommodate its weaknesses. Bungie reduced CRs damage to offset its strengths. That’s how you preserve build variety.
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[quote]It’s a problem. You’ve just adapted your play to accommodate its weaknesses. Bungie reduced CRs damage to offset its strengths. That’s how you preserve build variety.[/quote] Can you address my comparison to blade barrage? Why is it able to apply similar damage and with just as much precision as chaos but takes so much less time, leaving the player open to do a significant amount of damage with heavy weapons while chaos is slowly dealing its damage? Do you just think warlocks don’t need any class that is able to compete with hunters and titans for DPS or what?
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It’s not as precise. It just does massive AoE damage and is arguably OP.
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Edited by VT 07 Hokie: 9/1/2022 5:39:40 PM[quote]It’s a problem. You’ve just adapted your play to accommodate its weaknesses. Bungie reduced CRs damage to offset its strengths. That’s how you preserve build variety.[/quote] Well, at least for me, it hasn’t preserved build variety. Arc is unusable right now as a warlock or a titan. I’ll go back and revaluate if they ever get around to fixing their game breaking resilience bug, but even then I can’t see myself using chaos as it is now. There are just too many better options. It doesn’t offer anything I can’t get with another build but without the drawbacks. It’s not that it’s bad (other than being made out of glass due to resilience) it’s just that it’s not on par with other much better options.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 9/1/2022 5:37:20 PMIt’s not unplayable. You’ve just chosen not to engage with it. Just like people did at the start of last season.
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[quote]It’s not unplayable. You’ve just chosen not to engage with it. Just like people did at the start of last season.[/quote] It's fine if you're running around doing patrols. It's unplayable if you're trying to do higher end content. I have chosen not to engage in their incredibly broken class because it's incredibly broken. They've admitted it. You know it. You don't do high end content and so you also know you have no idea what it's like in that content. It's basically unplayable. Every single other class is better, by far, for high end content. Try going through a 1600 nightfall as arc and let me know how it goes for you and how many times you die. I can't even imagine what a grandmaster would be like.
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So, the trade-off for Chaos Reach is that it sacrifices damage for accuracy?
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Yes…and reliability. If you don’t have that kind of trade-off, CR becomes the obvious “best” choice. Which means you have an illusion of choice like we have in end-game. Where someone HAS to run Well of Radiance, and then someone else HAS to run Stasis. With the trade-offs you get abilities that are [i]situationally[/i] powerful. So you have more build options and more viable play styles.
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For a subclass thats supposed to have an identity, it struggles to keep that identity when other classes are filling that same identity in a better way.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 8/31/2022 2:06:46 PMThen you aren’t playing it properly. Or your build is poorly synergized. Because Arc warlock is very powerful you build into, and lean into, the aggressive play style the overhaul was designed around.
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Titans thunderclap melee does more damage than tickle fingers. Definitely needs a buff lol
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So? The role of Stormtrance is [i]crowd-control.[/i]. If you are using it for anything other than clearing out all the trash mobs in an area, you are going against the design of the game…and will struggle. If you are looking to primarily engage bosses and majors, the you need to be using Chaos Reach.
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Edited by Ray: 8/31/2022 1:08:55 PMI see you don’t do high level content, so your comment makes a lot of sense in that regard
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Edited by Illuminary: 8/31/2022 3:54:54 PMThis point is 100% irrelevant. Heavy weapon dps exists. Plus I have used arc in harder content and plan to do so in raids or GMs. Because people don't know how to play the game doesn't make the class weak.
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Edited by Ray: 8/31/2022 4:01:54 PMI’ve already used arc hunter in the raid. Arc hunter is amazing. That’s the difference Arc warlock is all fine and dandy in strikes and such, but in end game (where stuff really matters), it falls short bad. Stormtrance can’t even kill a red bar Wyvern on legend difficulty. So yea, it is relevant. And arc warlock is terrible