I'm getting Spirit Tracks vibes woth this but with a much bigger emphasis on combat, which is great because Spirit Tracks is a jam.
But, i would like to see Ado as more involved in the basic gameplay loop. Sure there's puzzles, but i feel like Ado's hust kinda there as another ability while in combat when there's some good potential you cpuld be missing out on. Initially, i thought it'd be cool to have Ado help gain more mana instead of the melee attack, but i've since thought of a better plan for him:
Environmentally, Ado could set off traps, activate AoEs, or change the map layout somehow. You could also play into this with the elements. I'm not sure if you kentioned this in the OP, but it would make sense to have Ado's mines correspond with Leine's Elemental Form. But i think you could go further with it; have the mines do a short duration of AoE, and then if Leine shoots a spell pf another element into the mine, it'll change into one of the bonus elements. This will give the player another tool to shift elements even in a Form.
Because, from the way interpreted it, i feel like Basic is the most interesting of the Forms. It might not be as strong or have as unique abilities, but being able to fully customize a loadout is going to give the player options that they like, and they'd probably end up spending mpst of their time in basic. I feel like adding more ways to get the bonus elements outside of basic might influence the player to constantly be switching spells and strategies mid-combat.
Also, half the game for shrines might be too much; imo, a third would be better.
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There’s two main reasons Ado doesn’t help out in combat much. Reason A is a lore reason; Mana Sparks can’t do much magic on their own. They need a wielder. Reason B is gameplay; when you play as Ado, Leine is left wide open, so he’s best used for hit & run. That said, I really love the idea of working with Ado for fusion spells! However, there’s a few problems to overcome. 1. How to put Ado & Leine in different Elemental Forms without being overbearing. 2. Switching to Ado, placing the mine, switching to Leine, striking the mine, then luring enemies to the right position is rather clunky. Need something smoother. 3. For all this work, the payoff should be more than just an element swap. This is your most complicated move! And thankfully I think I have a solution! Firstly, we want to make switching to Ado less risky if the player will be doing it more often, and to that end, perhaps Ado could slow/stop time when switched to. There would be a limit to this, of course, and probably a pretty long cooldown,but it’d let you place down some mines without too much risk. Then, while Ado & Leine share the same elemental state, mines will remain in whatever elemental state they were placed in. And finally, Leine will have a Secondary Spell (or maybe a dedicated button) called Fusion to “absorb” Ado’s mines, building a fusion charge. When the fusion is maxed, activating it will pull off some crazy powerful spell, combining Ado’s current Elemental Form with the element of the last mine absorbed. These could be huge battle-changing spells, that’d completely turn the tide, but in addition to their complicated casting technique, would have a long cooldown. [quote]Basic is the most interesting form[/quote] This is true. I actually want players in Basic Form most of the time. In fact, the only reason the other Elemental Forms exist at all is because I don’t want players to tun into a situation where they, for example, build themselves around Water, but then need Lightning, so thry have to pause, edit Mana Rocks, unpause, use Lightning, pause, change back to Water, unpause. Bleh. Lots of hassle when all four elements could be a button tap away. [quote]Also, half the game for shrines might be too much; imo, a third would be better.[/quote] I was looking at it from the perspective of dungeon count. If 4 dungeons is half the game, that’s 8 dungeons total (probably 9, including final dungeon). If it’s only a 3rd, that’s 12 whole dungeons. And 12 is a lot of dungeons.
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[quote]Reason A[/quote] Pssh, since when has a silly little thing like [i]lore[/i] ever mattered in a videogame? [quote]B[/quote] Right, since Leine is exposed when you switch to Ado, formimg these environmental traps and mine combos are a high-risk, high-reward move. You're absolutely right in that these should be powerful abilities because they're pretty difficult to pull off. But, maybe we can dedicate an Element around playing with Ado. If each Element has a certain playstyle associated with it, let's say Fire is all about getting up close and personal while dealing a ton of damage, Lightning is sitting back and sniping enemies from long range with powerful spells on long cooldowns, and Ice is a crowd-controller that doesn't deal as much damage but can hit a lot of enemies. Maybe Soul can be a combo/support class that has a lot of emphasis on chaining weaker spells to make really powerful ones and adding Ado into the gameplay loop. That way, all these bonus that we could throw in to make it easier to use Ado could be Secondary spells. I know you mentioned the Fusion spell would be cool, but a time-freeze spell that allows you to wander around as Ado for a few seconds freely would be awesome or maybe there's a spell that gives Leine an overshield or higher defense when playing as Ado. [quote]Basic[/quote] Ah ok, i see. You could use the Elemental Forms as sort of a tutorial as well. Every time a player unlocks a new spell, it could be assigned to one of the Forms, then there's a little challenge like: [i]vanquish 10 enemies with this spell[/i] that will upgrade it and make it usable in Basic. This way, you can force players to try out spells before they automatically dismiss them, or spend mana rocks and time building a playstyle around a pretty new spell that they think is good. [quote]Structure[/quote] Calculating playtime by dungeon count is great if your game is linear, but-- and i hate to be that guy-- but this combat system would flourish in a more open setting. Remember that feeling in Hollow Knight, when you spend about 8 hours getting to the City of Tears for the first time, only to realize that the game has just begun? That's the same feeling i think that the player should have once they complete the first four dungeons. Imagine, you're feeling pretty good, just completed the last of the first four dungeons. You approach the Gate of Gigloobub, locked by corrupted forces for the entire game. It swings open, you're ready to face the final dungeon, and then a giant overworld slaps you in the face instead. It dawns on you that everything you've done throughout the game, that was all one extended tutorial disguised as a real game. Feelings aside, an overworld would work awesome in a game like this because your moves are governed by spells, which could be treated as collectibles. Then, on top of thay, Basic is almost entirely designed around customizability, allowing the player to make a moveset tailored to their experience. The more spells there are, the more the level of customizability will be raised, so there should be like, a gabillion spells in this game, mostly scattered around the overworld. But, we both know that open worlds, at least the way they're built the modern way, suck, so there'd have to be a lot of changes to this overworld. I think that, instead of slapping more dungeons in, a collect the thingies section would be a cool way to encourage exploring. You could also have certain "keystone" spells that open up new areas, mostly found in mandatory levels, so that the player can experience everything the game has to offer. World bosses in hidden places would be cool as well, with 4 variants of each boss corresponding to each element, and they could drop similar spells of different elements as well. Sidequestwise, i think the Zelda approach would work really well, where they're just kinda snuck into the natural world without much guidance. And, you could loop sidequests around each other, where getting a certain "keystone: spell from one is required to progress another, which would tie the wordbuilding well together. [spoiler]...i just realized i'm basically just describing Wind Waker's structure, so just do that.[/spoiler]
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[quote]Reason B[/quote] Well, one [i]very[/i] important aspect to keep in mind is how your basic spell is used. And this is very important, because it is literally the entire reason I made this project, and without it, this project is LAME! No matter what elemental form you're in, your basic spell is cast by holding down A to summon a targeting ring, moving it around, and then releasing it above the target for an explosion. This will never change, no matter what elemental form you're in, or what Mana Rocks you have equipped; this will be the backbone of the entire combat system. No matter what Secondary Spells you have, nothing will replace this (so, there's no basic projectile spell, for example, because that might be used in place of the targeting ring). (if you're having a tough time visualizing it, I posted a few videos on this thread, actually) What this means is, the playstyles between Elements won't actually vary that much. They'll have different debuffs, stat focuses, and Secondary Spells, but the core gameplay in each style more or less remains the same. Think, CrossCode, where even though Lea's special moves change when she swaps elements, her core moveset is ultimately unaffected. Furthermore, that means dedicated an entire Element to Ado, wouldn't really work, because the core of your moveset is still this targeting ring. [spoiler]If you're curious, this is what I had envisioned for each Element, though to be fair this could change; Fire: Secondaries and Melee attacks inflict a DoT burn effect. Secondaries generally give big AoE booms, with perhaps some self-inflicted burns that increase damage. Ado's Mines are BIG! The primary stat for Fire is Attack. Ice: Secondaries and Melee attacks will give an opponent a stack of "Frostbite". When they get X stats (varies by enemy) they take a big chunk of damage. Secondaries generally involve trapping/slowing enemies, and hitting them with multiple weaker hits to build up those Frostbite Counters. Ado's Mines fragment into weak single-target homing missiles. The Primary Stat for Ice is Speed/Defense (not sure which). Lightning: Secondaries and Melee attacks will stun opponents. The stun time depends on the move. Secondaries will often involve manipulating the position of both Leine, and the Enemies. Ado's Mines will be homing AoE bombs. The Primary Stat for Lightning is Mana Regeneration. Soul: Secondaries and Melee attacks will sap health from opponents. Secondaries will usually be focused around survivability. Ado's Mines will be health-sapping DoT Auras. The Primary Stat for Soul is Mana Regeneration.[/spoiler] Some Secondaries could be used for Ado (such as a Ghost Form, for Soul, making you temporarily invincible), but anything that's added as a Secondary could also just be used for Leine. If the goal is to incorporate Ado into the gameplay loop more, it seems more logical to me to make something an Ado-exclusive skill. Perhaps rather than Secondaries, each element has an associated "Ado Swap" skill? [quote]Basic[/quote] Ooh, I like the idea that spells need to be mastered before they unlock for Basic. Gives me Nobody Saves the World vibes, which does something similar (albeit the other way around). I dig it. [quote]Structure[/quote] The game was already intended to be a bit open, actually. Not an actual open world, but open in the same sense that Skyward Sword, and CrossCode are. You can revisit old areas, but with a bunch of opened shortcuts from your first time around. Otherwise, adding in Elemental enemies to the world afte you clear a Shrine would be pretty redundant. :p Not sure how I feel about there being a ton of spells, though. I was thinking only a few. Like, 20 at most, not counting Mines & Cast variants. Some would have special elemental variants, but I definitely don't want a Wizards of Legend here. A few super great spells > Lots of only mediocre ones. But indeed, the Shrines are supposed to be a fake-out ending. I couldn't help but already build the story and everything around it here, and you're under the impression that the Corruption (which I've taken to calling the Errata) has taken the Shrines, and is spreading out from there, which is true. You're under the impression that purifying the Shrines will therefore destroy the Errata. Only PLOT TWIST, the TRUE VILLAIN reveals themselves after you purify the fourth Shrine, and it turns out the Shrines being corrupted was some sort of defense mechanism, and was holding back the BIG ERRATA, which appears as a giant eyeball in the sky, and stars Corrupting everything even worse! BAM! Five more Dungeons! Fight back against the new Corrpution! Oh yeah! I actually had a bit on sidequests that I wound up editing out to save on space. Basically, this story revolves around the Spark Wielders, which there are, like 7ish? While the main story will mostly focused around Ado-Leine, and maybe a couple others, you'll have at least 4 other ones with big sidequest chains. These would be pretty much the only sidequests, though. In the first dungeon, you'd learn that the Ado and Errata share some sort of relationship, because the Ado are the only things that can destroy the Errata, and the Errata is the only thing that can destroy the Ado, and in the first dungeon you'd be making your way through with another Spark Wielder, only for him to try taking on the boss alone, and getting his Ado corrupted. The boss would then use said Ado in its fight against you. Each sidequest chain would be wildly different, but there's one constant between them; if you lead that Spark Wielder down the wrong path, it will end with their Ado getting corrupted. In my Project Spark version, I've already sort of implied that Mana Shards (the thingies that give you new spells) are the weapons of dead Spark Wielders, and so I was thinking of also putting in some overworld bosses who are just Errata-monsters using corrupted Ado. These bosses (along with Mana Rocks) could be your collectibles. Crucially, though, it's important that failing a sidequest chain (getting a Spark Wielder's Ado corrupted) would [b]not[/b] unlock a new boss. That's rewarding players for getting the Ado corrupted, which is bad. [spoiler]Example sidequest: You enter a village, and the Spark Wielder there is an arrogant rich girl who's had everything in life come easy to her. Her magical powers have made her the star of the town, and everyone loves her. When you first come into town she basically just tells you to get lost, because you also being a Spark Wielder means you could possibly steal her spotlight. After you purify "X" Shrine, she will journey out to claim its element. You can visit her after she's obtained it, and find that she's totally freaking out, because she can't get the hang of that particular element, and the town kinda needs help with (elemental issue). You could offer to help train her, or just kick her to the curb and fix the town's problem yourself. Insert several more similar sidequests, where you're slowly either building her trust with you, or doing exactly what she feared, and start stealing the spotlight. Eventually, the town would come under attack by the Errata. If you've built up her friendship, and gotten her to realize she doesn't need to do anything alone, you'll take on the Errata together, and save the town! However, if you've been going around stealing the show, making her hate you, and wanting to be back in the spotlight, she'll force you to watch over a safehouse or something, as she tries to hold off the assault by herself. If she tries to hold off the assault by herself, the Errata will burst into town, and you'll have to hold them off yourself, destroying much of the town in the process. One of the Errata will have princess' Ado, which you'll purify, before finding her almost dead, saved from the brink by your healing spell. The town will be wrecked, deprived of their only Spark Wielder, and princess is a wreck having not only lost her Ado, but taking a huge hit to her pride failing at every turn.[/spoiler] . . . As you can see, I've gotten a little carried away with this.. >.>
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Edited by Merribor: 4/18/2022 11:38:11 PM[quote]B[/quote] Oooohh, i seee. When i read that this was a spellcaster game built around customizability, my brain immideately thought that this would be some sort of crazy bullet hell where your fingers are flying all over the controller, switching between spells and characters and chaining together insane combos. That would be fun, but that's not what we're going for here, is it? This game is much simpler than i thought it was: learning enemy attack patterns and weaknesses, then crafting a build to deal with every scenario without too much of a headache. While the player should focus on one element to max a cetain stat, they'll need well rounded secondaries and good bonus elements in case they find enemies that counter that element. [spoiler]if you ask me, i think Defense would be better for ice than speed, since attack and defense are more closely related than attack and speed. I feel like it'd be weird to have an attack stat, but not a defense one, but i might be too mired in conventionality to make that judgement. Or, you could move speed down to Lightning, since it's all avout movement, which would open up defense for ice.[/spoiler] Ok, so if you did have an Ado-swap skill, it would need to be focused around creating breathing space for Leine. In the spirit of simplicity, they could all be just AoE blasts where Leine is standing at the time of swap. So fire would do some damage plus the brun effect, ice wpuld freeze enemies for a short time, lightning would release a big shockwave that pushes enemies away, and i suppose soul could force the enemies to drop their weapons. (Soul seems to be the hard one, imo). Of course, this skill would need to be on cooldown so it doesn't get abused. The Forms would come with the skill attatched, but Basic could use a Mana Rock instead. And, to keep Basic more interesting, there could be a point where you unlock two Rock slots, which could give you swap attacks in the bonus elements instead. This is pretty neat, because I do think Ado needs a little something more because switching to him is very risky. When the game starts getting a little rough, i feel like Ado swapping is the first thing players are going to drop, which could take the cool little mines out of the gameplay loop entirely. [quote]Structure[/quote] I just started Skyward Sword recently, so i'll be able see what you're talking about soon! Whether the overworld is past the Shrines or hidden behind them, i don't think matters that much, as long as it's there. The five new dungeons would have to be indicated in pretty obvious directions, so that there's still some foreward momentum, even if your character isn't technically moving forward. I'm thinking like the classic [i]dungeon rises from ground and looms ominously across the land[/i], but there's other ways to get that effect. I like 7 Spark-Wielders because 7 is a important number, and it seems pretty easy to fit into the game. You got the guy in the first dungeon, he's mandatory so you get the tutorial on how the sidequests work. 5 more, all of whuch correspond to the second set of dungeons, and trigger in the areas of the each dungeon. I'm assuming the fifth dungeon in the second set is meant to be the final, so that guy could be like the master (or whatever you want to call him) of the Spark-Wielders who disappeared or gor kidnapped or something before the game started. The four others could reference him as well, so you don't have to have an exposition dump in the middle of the final dungeon. And finally, Leine. Since 7 is a big number, you could maybe make a big deal about Leine being the 7th Weilder, whose destiny is it to save the world because all the others are nerd lameos. It'd also give a reason for the big bad to be sending all these worldbosses after Leine while mostly ignoring the others. And, spekaing of worldbosses, it seems strange that saving an Ado creates a boss. If the Ado get corrupted, shouldn't that create a monster? I get why you'd want to reward being smart with the quests and saving the Ados, but what if you make corrupting Ado the harder choice to accomplish, then reward players for getting the bad ending? Now i know that seems contradictory, you don't want people making bad choices, but if Leine's Ado is actually a traitor-Ado, working for the Errata the whole time, then making the bad choices would be fall in line better with the story. Leine's Ado knew that cleansing the Shrines would release the Big Bad, but Leine doesn't find that out because she's a dum-dum [i]huuuuman[/i]. When the player reaches the final dungeon, the Traido reveals himself and revokes all her magic. But, at the last minute, the Ado of the Master that died that you find at the dungeon escapes and joins itself to Leine, making her the 7th weilder and fulfilling the prophecy. This would also explain why the other, more experienced can't really venture out into the world but Leine can. Or you could do the much simpler story which is that the big bad gets mad that Leine foiled his plans so sends a boss dude to attack her. That would encourage getting the good ending and be waaayyy easier to explain. [spoiler]a sidequest with a decent character arc??? This would be revolutionary for gaming! [/spoiler]
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[quote]B[/quote] Well, you have access to all four elements at any time, so that lets you bypass the "deal with any situation without that big of a headache". How you want to customize Basic therefore, is completely up to you. But yeah, the game is definitely not a bullet hell. In fact, it's rather slow paced. I don't know if you've ever played Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles, but I honestly don't think I've ever played a game that's made me feel as much like a master wizard. You just conjure a rune, move it around, and then that rune explodes. I love it! But since conjuring that rune takes a second, it's all about waiting for an opening where you can throw that rune in. [spoiler]See, I agree, that defense does fit ice better, but I was thinking speed 'cause, like ice skating. Speed also seems like a more valuable stat in this kind of game, letting you quickly pick up and go after you finish casting a rune, and possibly decreasing rune cast time. But, I don't know. Defense could be nifty, too.[/spoiler] Well, Lightning would be the stun, not ice. Stun is Lightning's status ailment. If it's just an AoE burst, it would probably knock enemies away on all of them, and then just do their status ailment. So, burn for fire, frostbite for ice, stun for lightning, and vampire for soul. That setup seems to heavily favor Lightning for what this attack is supposed to be, though. But, they don't necessarily have to be the same for all classes. Ice could create a defense barrier, Soul could create enemy-distracting ghosts, and stuff like that. Most bonus elemental "bursts" would probably resemble one of the basic elements, but with different affinities/debuffs. Players would definitely stop using Ado in combat as is, though. I say that from experience, because I made the jamblasted thing, and I don't use Ado. [quote]Structure[/quote] Okay, so we're getting into a lot of story stuff, and it's worth noting I actually have most of the major story beats mapped out. I can share it with you if you want in a separate comment (it hit the word count), but it's kind of hard to say much about that without going all in. That said, the idea behind the number of Spark Wielders was: 1. Leine, obviously. 2. Traitor bad guy. 3. Dude in the first Shrine. 4. Fire. 5. Ice. 6. Lightning. 7. Soul. There wouldn't be a prophecy or anything, because Spark Wielders come and go all the time. There'd even be an 8th Spark Wielder in the story who doesn't have a sidequest, but is just there for a story beat, and as I think I mentioned, you get new spells by absorbing dead Spark Wielder's weapons. You'd also meet all of them before the final Shrine; the idea is they have sidequests that span pretty much the entire game. As for the worldbosses, I was thinking they'd be something you'd hunt down, not something that'd hunt you down. The Errata is a sort of mindless corruption, just taking everything and turning it bad. Even once the main villain is revealed, they aren't, like, actively sending the Errata after you. It's more like they plant the seeds, and the corruption just spreads. On that note, I think I may not have explained the sidequests the best; Completing a sidequest wouldn't summon a worldboss, just failing wouldn't summon one either. The worldbosses would be enemies who killed non-story relevant Spark Wielders, and took their Sparks. I think I would have it so getting a good ending would reward players with some unique spells or something, while getting the bad ending would probably just be a handful of high-end Mana Rocks.
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[quote]B[/quote] I think having access to all 4 elements is still good because it mitigates the -blam!- the player receives for running around with an incomplete Basic loadout. You don't want players to create a Basic set entirely around fire, only to meet an enemy that's strong against fire, and have them chip away at the sponge for an hour. The "headache" stems from having to switch Forms mid-combat, train your brain to use a loadout you aren't used to, then switch back to the one you made for yourself. I think that ideally, by the end of the game, the player shouldn't be switching off of Basic that often, unless they want to utilize the Forms for some reason. Also, having access to all 4 would be goot for puzzles. The real reason for having all the Ado-swap skills the same, or at least very similar, is so that the focus of shifting Ado's element stays on using Ado, and not the neat little bonus skill you get. If they're all different, players might equip Mana Rocks on Ado solely for the sake of having an exyra cool move, even if it doesn't fit into their loadout at all. As you pointed out though, the drawback here is balancing. If they're all so similar, then how could we prevent one skill from being objectively better than the other? The easy solution is that you don't balance them perfectly, but you make the threshold for better or worse so slight that the advanatges you get from switching Ado's element outweigh the advantages you get from using a better Ado-swap skill. But i will admit having different swapskills would be more interesting. [spoiler]Defense seems to make the most sense, so it was my gut instinct to say Defnese, but it is a pretty boring stat. In general, most stats have an apparent visual inpact on the game: like your health bar will increase if you level health, your mana regen is ckrarly faster if you level mana, hits take more health off the enemy if you level attack. But Defense just kinda exists, affecting the invisible calculations going on behind the scenes of the game. Speed would feel more impactful, but i'm not sure how it would play out as opposed to Defense in practice. [/spoiler] [quote]Structure[/quote] I should've known you had all the story stuffs mapped out lol. If you still have it all typed up, i'd like to take a look-see at the ideas in play! So are the worldbosses connected with the sidequests at all, or would these be two different flavors of side content that the player would have to find by exoring around?
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Edited by The First Aifos: 4/20/2022 5:18:59 AM[quote]Forms[/quote] That's why your basic spell is always the same. Cast, Combust, Glaciate, Electroburst, Siphon--names I just came up with on the spot--always act the exact same, just with an elemental affiliation. Same would go for Splash, Flash, Haunt, Void, Stoneburst, and Gravechill. Also all names I just came up with on the spot. While your weapon's attack would change, all weapon forms also have that same "long windup, single strike" bit, so that shouldn't be too bad, either. You'd only need to manage your changing secondary attacks, and Ado's mines, which seems doable. Switching Elements should be something the player can do on the fly, and without too much hassle. On that note, while I do indeed what the player in Basic most of the time, Elements should still be swapped to fairly frequently. Namely because Fusion Elements won't have very good debuffs, at least, not on their own. Rather, their debuffs would mostly just be setups for interactions with the basic elements. Ex; Water would likely inflict a Soaked debuff, which would add an extra 50% damage onto the next Lightning attack that enemy gets hit by. Now, you could just stick a Lightning attack on your basic to follow up, but if you switch to Lightning then you'd get something like an extra 15% from Lightning's inherent Element boost. Necromancy could mark enemies with a "Resurrect" debuff, which would summon a Ghoul ally when they die. But, if they had a second debuff upon death, they'd summon a different, more powerful ally, such as having Leech (Soul's debuff) giving you a Vampire. Stuff like that. [quote]Ado[/quote] To keep the focus on Ado, I think the important bit is to make sure the attacks either force you to use Ado, or just heavily encourage it. One easy way to do this is make it so there's actually a cooldown timer on swapping. So, you swap to Ado, then you have to stay as Ado for a second or two. This makes it so you can't, say, swap to Ado for a big AoE Lightning stun, then hop back to follow up with Leine. You have to use Ado. [quote]Ice[/quote] Yeah, it's hard to say. I can say, however, in Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (the game's main inspiration), one of the best spells in the entire game is Haste. Like, Haste is [i]so[/i] good that I will usually forgo having a heal in my Command Slots in order to have Haste instead. There's one big difference between FF:CC and Cross, though. In FF:CC Haste also affects cast speed, but since Cross will be focused around magic, cast speed is already pretty low, so I doubt speed would affect that too much. So, who knows? [quote]Story[/quote] https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/260964419/0/0/1 Nah, worldbosses will be tied to a certain story event. They'd show up after you clear the final Shrine, and then they'd just be there. There'd be some sort of clear indicator that you're approaching one, though. No dude wandering around who you attack thinking he's a normal enemy only to get locked in a boss battle. *cough*EldenRing*cough*