Most of people's complaints about shotguns have nothing to do with the shotgun itself.
Felwinter's lie basically just gets you one-additional meter in terms of range....and a more consistent OHK at extreme range than other shotguns.
Which is only going to help you in a shotgun-on-shotgun duel.....and only if you aren't going up against someone runnign a well-spec'ed slug shotgun.
Ninety percent of Destiny's "shotgun problem" has to do with underpowered primaries. Not overpowered shotguns. In fact, Bungie shotguns are WEAK compared to those in other shooters.
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Edited by NM3K: 5/2/2021 10:34:23 PMAnd map design, that plays a huge part on the make or break on shotgun usage or not. Edit: Basically what Emurinus said
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Small maps are another problem. Most of the current maps are optimized for 3v3 or 4v4, but not 6v6.
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Thank you
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The other problem isn't even just shotguns it's the special ammo economy. With how readily available special is people run it as a primary( which is why I think trading surplus for quickdraw wont help anything because its arguably better) it's an ammo problem because if shotguns were obliterated it would be replaced by fusions, then snipers etc.
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In a game where the sandbox is properly balanced, the devs don't have to restrict your access to ammo. Because there are enough disadvantages to running with a OHK weapon, that those disadvantages limit its use. Bungie has to resort to trying to starve snipers, fusion rifles and shotguns of ammo, because primaries kill too slowly to ever be able to balance the sandbox. So Bungie PUNTED....and limits the use of OHK weapons...but limiting their ammo. But all that has done is turn special weapons into just another snowball mechanic....and encourages their spamming. Since getting kills with one, give you more ammo for it. So you linked having special ammo to either dying.....or special weapon use.
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I believe you said something about it in another post but the maps also are extremely forgiving to shotguns as the ohk weapon of choice. When you're that close it's better to just hit one button the boom someones down. I wish there were larger maps to accompany snipers and like mid size maps so fusions had more time to charge before getting killed by a shotty
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The sad part was some of the more medium-large maps were on planets that was sent to the DCV. If anything... Why Osiris has yet to make large maps a thing if he can replicate mercury maps (Lore-Wise)? In more realistic terms... Bungie needs to reintroduce D1 maps that are large or make large maps based on the current and upcoming planets (if any) they plan to reintroduce in the future.
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Poor map design is compounding the problem. But it is not causing the problem. Map design and game mode selection all drive players towards engagments at short-to-mid-range. So once a player figures out what are the most efficient weapons at that range in PVP for a given season? There is almost no reason to EVER change your loadout. Whereas---when I used to play Titanfall---I was always swapping weapons based on the map layout....and how I wanted to approach playing it. Crucible never makes that demand on you, and never tests your versatility as a player. But I agree. a wider variety of maps....and better map design with more verticality would allow for a wider variety of play styles....and make the meta and shotguns feel less oppressive.
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[quote]Ninety percent of Destiny's "shotgun problem" has to do with underpowered primaries. Not overpowered shotguns. In fact, Bungie shotguns are WEAK compared to those in other shooters.[/quote] It's also map design and how powerful the movement abilities we have are.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 5/2/2021 6:13:18 PMThat's the other 10%. Agreed. :) But Titanfall 1 and 2 have shown that you can easily manage the issue of fast, unpredictable player movement....if you haver primary weapons that can actually kill fast enough to keep up with the speed of play.
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Destiny 2’s speed of movement is no where near the speed of Titanfall 2, and TF2 average TTK is about .45 seconds to compensate for that movement. This isn’t even bringing in the discussion how TF2 has much better netcode/server stability. You can already insta-die from primaries in D2 due to sever lag, and that’s from guns getting around a .6 TTK. A decrease in TTK would just lead to gunfights being decided even more by connection, and a lowering of the skill ceiling making the game way to much like CoD.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 5/2/2021 7:22:34 PM[quote]Destiny 2’s speed of movement is no where near the speed of Titanfall 2, and TF2 average TTK is about .45 seconds to compensate for that movement. [/quote] Actually Destiny 2's speed of movement IS almost as fast and unpredictable as that of pilots...but it is NOT equal to it. So the TTK doesn't need to be as fast as it is in Titanfall. https://youtu.be/fgqYzxqS_74 But the point is that the TTK in Destiny 2 is too slow for the speed at which Guardians move...and its why the game has as special weapon "spam" problem that is unsolvable excpet through starving them of ammo..... ....while Titanfall has never had such a problem. The reason is that the TTK is fast enough to create a RANGE PENALTY if you try to use a OHK weapon as you're primary. If you get caught with a shotgun in your hands out of shotgun range? You are going to die unless the other player makes a mistake. You won't have time to run at them to close the gap....and you won't have time to run away to cover. Whereas the opposite is true in Destiny. If I get caught with a shotgun at anything inside of AR range? I can simply run at the other guy, secure in the knowledge that I'll close to shotgun range and kill him before he can kill me if he tries to stand his ground and fight. If I'm caught with a shotgun outside of that range? Simply run away to cover. As long as I remaing situationally aware, I can escape to cover before you can kill me with an primary. SO THERE IS NO REASON TO EVER PUT THAT SHOTGUN AWAY, EXCEPT FOR WHEN I HAVE NO AMMO FOR IT. Because there is NO DISADVANTAGES associated with its constant use. While the faster TTK in Titanfall enforces MANY. Which is why you almost never see shotgun rushing as a playstyle...and the few who use it are MASTERS at using the game's movement abilities...and avoiding detection by opponets. Whereas most people shotgunners in Destiny just run at you and block your fire with their face. And a decrease of TTK in this game to 0.6 would be all that's needed to solve the shotgun problem. Which was the TTK in vanilla D1.
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Destiny 2 movement isn’t even close to TF2, and if you think that you’ve never played the game. You can cover the average map size of Destiny in less than 10 seconds in TF2. It’s possible to reach old warlock skating with worldline zero speeds in a normal match if you’re skilled enough with the tech in the game. All it takes is to watch some old competitive TF2 CTF games to understand that. You’re also completely neglecting the size of TF2 maps. Even the smallest maps are 3~4 times the average of D2’s due to the availability of Titans. Even the PVP game modes with no Titans have much larger maps than D2’s average. It also is not hard to be good with “slow” weapons such as the Mastiff due to its consistent OHK. Hell, the softball was considered extremely OP at higher levels due to its OHK abilties even though it has a limited range, travel time, and slow fire rate. D2 has moved away from any type of actual gun skill in its PvP play. Most gunfights are determined by who has their abilities on cool down more than who can actually aim. Decreasing TTK wouldn’t change that, as getting slowed by stasis, or hit by any damage from a grenade/ability would be even more of a death sentence than it is. A decrease in TTK to .6 would kill D2 PvP, as that was around the auto rifle meta TTK and people hated it. It would also make weapon archetypes impossible to balance, and would make more than 80% of them redundant.
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I've played both games.....and the movement speed of pilots is only slightly faster than what expert Guardians can manage. 1. The sense of speed in Destiny is impaired because of the reduced FOV that console players were forced to use until PS5 and XBSX came out and the game was updated in December. 2. The sense of speed is also impaired by the small size and cramped nature of Destiny's PVP maps 3. Titanfall is faster mainly because the movement techniques of TF (wall running, slide-hopping) let you reach speeds that that would break the game in Destiny PVE (you'd outrun the ability of the game to load new locations.) But getting into a pissing contest over which game is faster and by how much is pointless...and it isn't relevant. THE POINT is that the TTK in Titanfall is fast enough to keep up with the speed of play...and prevent people from simply running you down with shotguns over open ground because they can close the gap faster than the game's multi-shot weapons can kill. Thus enforcing a significant disadvantage to maining a shotgun in open areas where you can be engaged from beyond shotgun range. Primaries in Destiny do NOT kill fast enough to keep up with play. So players can run you down from almost MID-range simply because the game's primaries dont' kill fast enough to allow the player to stand their ground and fight off the rush. This absurdity is only made worse by overshields, movement abilities like sliding, invisiblity, etc....that only extends that range that someone can dominate with a shotgun because of the excessive TTK relative to player speed. This is why Bungie has NEVER been able to balance the sandbox properly since primary weapon TTK was pushed back to 0.8 to 0.85 seconds....and why they ended up having to PUNT and try to control special weapons by limiting ammo. Whereas Titanfall ....or any other comp shooter....has had to resort to that.
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1. While I’m nowhere near the best player in the game, I’ve been able to hang with some of the best of them, and unless you’re using macro’s you can’t even get close to that game’s speed. (This is coming from someone who’s had a PS5 for pretty much the entirety of D2’s upgrade’s existence it has nothing to do with the limited FOV or other technical aspects) 2. Abilities are one of the most predominant, and best way to handle somebody pushing with a shotgun, or using a fusion. Almost every class has an effective way (especially with stasis) to out right win an engagement if people aren’t playing smart and just playing hyper aggressively shot gun-aping. 3. The speed of movement can help primary play as much as it does special weapon play. The amount of people that will either approach a corner blindly, or push somebody clearly with a shotgun out is staggering. The general D2 PvP player isn’t amazing with the average community KD being around a .9. Finally, your final point shows that you have no idea how games are designed. TONS of games limit the ability, and usage of “special ammo” they just aren’t called that, but fill the same roll. The sniper, shotgun, rocket launcher, etc in Halo were all limited by spawn rates, Map control, and power positions. The AWP in CS:GO is limited by price and general team economy, same with Valorant. The Boomshot, Sniper, etc in Gears of War were limited by the same things that limited the Halo specials. Special ammo has been limited in almost every game that has seen any true competitive play, you just can’t see that because it isn’t labeled the same. I can agree that special weapons are a problem, but Destiny isn’t CoD. The maps weren’t designed around that low of a TTK, nor were any of the abilities, movement options, or supers. Reducing the TTK that low would just promote and extremely passive, campy play style. You only have to look at the most recent MW to realize that.
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Actually you can. You need to experience the game on PC.
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In a crucible match, reaching those speeds aren’t realistic since it almost always requires tech that isn’t possible, or a sparrow.
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I'm just here to flick you in the forehead..... [spoiler]flick....[/spoiler]
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Swing and a miss..... One strike....
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So....are you saying I swung my finger at you.....or did you [b]not read where I specifically said FLICK.....[/b]
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Still missed. Just roll with the baseball reference and don’t overthink it.....
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It made no sense KG. I said I'm here to [b]flick[/b] your forehead....flick... I mean really....how is that a swing and a miss KG.... Your reference was dumb. Perhaps maybe you are still stuck in the Oregon Trail days.....when that [i]might[/i] have made sense.
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You’re committed to overthinking.
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Haha....nah KG. Even if you meant that I didn't get to you....like swing and miss....then you wouldn't have replied. [spoiler]as I said....the way you used this phrase....made and still makes.....no sense..... [/spoiler]
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Wow. You really need a sense of humor...