https://www.bungie.net/7/en/Seasons/SeasonOfDawn So, I know many of you are flipping out as much as I am about the trailer for Season of Dawn. I myself noticed a few things that I think are worth discussing with my fellow lore nerds. And this post will also be informative for any curious readers. To start, here’s some important quotes from the trailer and the Season of Dawn info page: [spoiler]“Stop a council of Cabal Psion Flayers from manipulating time and undoing our victory against the Red Legion.” —Bungie, info page “You’ve been busy Guardian. When you slew the Undying Mind you changed the course of history. Now time is broken on Mercury, fractured by the Legion. They intend to write a new history, a new ending to the Red War. If you’re willing to help, you’ll need to walk the corridors of time. And you’ll need my Sundial to do it. I built it so that an ally of mine could cheat death. I failed to help him and his death remains my greatest regret.” —Osiris [i]*Saint-14 punches Vex through an Infinite Forest gateway LIKE A BOSS*[/i][/spoiler] So, as we know, the Infinite Forest is used to create infinite simulations for the Vex. These simulations reflect many alternate timelines and possibilities. No real time travel is involved, and nothing that happens within the Forest affects the real world. The Vex use these simulations to test and predict outcomes. The Undying Mind is connected to the Black Garden. We don’t know the extent of the connection the Black Garden and Undying Mind have with time, but the existence of the Sol Progeny confirms that the Black Garden shares a significant connection to timelines, though not nearly as significant as the Vault of Glass. Pair this up with the paracausal nature of the Black Garden and the gate that Ikora made to pursue the Undying Mind through timelines, and we’ve got a whole mess of timeline stuff going on. So here’s one of the big questions: [b]What affect did the death of the Undying Mind have on time?[/b] Osiris states that this changed the course of history. Considering that we were chasing it through timelines, it makes perfect sense that we affected several timelines. But it’s very bold to claim that we changed our own history. That’s something that wouldn’t make sense, especially because the Vex deal in timelines and Destiny has made a point of using that, not the disastrously messy idea of messing with linear time. Using the idea of changing your own past and not an alternate timeline is icky business. Any thoughts on how the Undying Mind’s death could have affected time? [b]The Red Legion’s Psion Flayers tampering with the Infinite Forest[/b] is the next part of the puzzle. Osiris claims they have “broken time” on Mercury and are trying to change history so that they win the Red War. Now, it’s perfectly reasonable to assume the Psion Flayers are messing with the Infinite Forest and are manipulating simulations (Psions are awesome). But, as has been established, the Infinite Forest doesn’t actually affect reality, and is only a way for the Vex to foresee outcomes and run tests. So the Psions should only be able to mess with simulations with no effect on reality. So how are they messing with time? How can they change history using the Infinite Forest? The death of the Undying Mind is most likely a factor in this. Thoughts? [b]Saint-14 is back.[/b] First thing I’ll say: WOO! We all knew it was coming and it’s glorious! Osiris said he tried to revive Saint-14 after he died in the Forest. I’m very interested in how he could have done this because, again, the Forest only does simulations Which means we can’t pull another Saint-14 out or rewind time. Many of us believed Saint-14 would come out of Ikora’s gate, because that was an actual time gate. The Vault or the Citadel or maybe the Pyramidion would have worked. But no, the trailer clearly shows Saint-14’s glorious fist coming out of the Forest to unleash pure, righteous fury on that poor Vex’s face. So how the heck did Saint-14 come out of the Forest? Was his corpse somehow revived, was he reverted to a past state from before death, or was another Saint-14 pulled from a different timeline (like before Six Fronts when Saint-14 looked through a Vex time gate and saw a future timeline)? Either way, Saint-14 coming out of the Forest alive must involve time travel or timelines, and that isn’t how the Forest works. If it were the Vault or Ikora’s gate, then heck yeah it would make sense. I am concerned that this story will change the Forest from simulations to time travel, which would change lore. Alternatively, I would have loved to see the Vault or the Citadel’s time gates or Ikora’s time gate used to bring back Saint-14. Further into the subject of the appearance of Saint-14, [b]he’s wearing his helmet.[/b] Our Saint-14 left his helmet on the ground after killing Solkis, Kell of Devils, with a headbutt. The helmet was later recovered and is now used by other Guardians. We found Saint’s corpse in the Forest and (I love this attention to detail) he didn’t have his helmet. So, this heavily suggests that the Saint-14 in Season of Dawn isn’t ours, and is likely from a different past timeline. This is similar to how our Saint looked through a Vex gate and saw into a future timeline before Six Fronts. But this is also different. Our Saint saw a future where we won and were at piece. This new Saint is coming into a war with the Red Legion and Vex. I’m very eager to see how this plays out. For all the above subjects covering time and changing time, there is one case where changing time has been applied: The Vault of Glass. In the Vault, time and timelines are all blurred. Very blurred. You can stray in time and space, see things in different timelines, lose you place in time and be erased. Atheon, the Oracles, and the Gorgons can all alter time, switching through timelines to find one where you never enter the Vault, effectively erasing you from the current timeline. This same technique could perhaps bring back Guardians like Saint-14, but it’s limited to inside the Vault. Vex time gates like those in the Citadel allow you to pass through timelines, but it’s not nearly as extreme as the Vault. Please discuss; share your thoughts. I’m sure this will all be explained in the season, but I know we all have a lot to say now after seeing the trailer. [b]A few other thoughts:[/b] What did y’all think of Saint-14’s voice? I myself don’t particularly like his voice, but that may just be because it wasn’t what I had imagined. I have nothing against it and it was an interesting surprise. YOU ALL SAW THAT HEADBUTT FINISHER We got to see Saint-14 use Ward of Dawn and the Shield. I’m hoping we also get to see him use his Arc energy, though we know he was much more fond of the Void Subclasses. How will Osiris react to seeing Saint-14 alive?! I want to see those two share a monster hug! It seems this Saint-14 is going to be in a very different situation than our Saint-14 before Six Fronts. That Saint saw a timeline where we had won and were at peace. This one is diving into a war with the Red Legion and Vex. What will happen to Saint-14 after this season? Will he go back to his time or stay? This question is hard to answer, since we don’t yet know how this Saint-14 appeared. Conspiracy theory: Saint-14 is ACTUALLY A VEX SIMULATION! Lol Psion Flayers are back baby! Powerful Psions are so incredible, and I want more of them! Just reading about Match and the God-Thoughts in Confessions made my mouth water! (I mean-um-no, I wasn’t salivating over Psion lore! You were!) For more of my posts, check out my [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/228191135/0/0]Master Post[/url].
Well, I doubt he will be a simulation, his voice yells at u during the sundial, like how shaxx yells during the crucible, this might also show that he won't go back, tho that's is the end of the season. And unrelated if he used to be the titan vanguard will he take the position back. If they only fill it upon the death of the old vanguard, he isn't dead anymore, he literally came back from death without a ghost(better than what zavala has ever done) or was he kicked out like osiris