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10/24/2024 7:41:08 PM
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I really hate the Warhammer series, and this doesn't have anything to do with the game itself. From my, admittedly loose, understanding, it's sort of set in a "world without heroes" kind of setting, where no faction is really "the good guy" and they're all pretty messed up. And, like, that's fine, in theory, but sweet baby corn does this really bring out the worst in people.
You find all these Warhammer players who will side with a faction no in a "best of the worst" kind of way, but actually go fully onboard with the faction in question, including all the awful messed up stuff they do. And, like, then you have this raving bunch of people who are unironically going around supporting the space fascists, and touting their space racism around like it's something to be proud of.
And sure, for some people, this is just supposed to be a funny bit they do, but then you start seeing how these people act when they're not doing the bit, and you're like "oh cob, it wasn't just a bit they're actually like this".
And it feels like these people use Warhammer as a way to justify their awful behavior, and then have it be reinforced by other Warhammer players, and it is just, like, the most toxic playerbase I've ever seen. And not toxic in the way of whining about game balance, or anything like that, but toxic insofar as them having legitimately awful beliefs and mindsets that the game unintentionally gives them an avenue to reinforce.
Obviously, not all Warhammer players are like this, but it's a prevalent enough attitude that even if I was moderately interested in the setting (which I'm not really, but that's besides the point), I just couldn't be part of a fandom where a not-insignificant portion unironically supports the space fascists.
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Honestly I think the memes and oversimplifications impact the mainstream perception of the lore for outside audiences. Sometimes that’ll lead to people thinking it’s something it’s not and either hating it, or joining because of that misconception, which sucks. And it also sucks cause the Imperium isn’t even racist/-blam!-, but that’s what everyone makes it seem like. Those who are blindly spamming “heresy” and “xenos” are usually shmitposting, but I get how it can get old fast. Some folks can just be slow to stop once the wagon gets rolling. Dunno about bragging about racism as you stated on a lower post. I get xenophobia against the fictional aliens, but with actual humans is a weird one. [spoiler]— Personally I dig the gothic vibe of the Imperium and the cool artwork/scale of things. Plus all the variety they have, not just in space marines, but guardsmen and other factions too. (I’ve yet to check out other alien factions apart from Necrons. Lotsa content) Look up a Warlord Titan. Thing’s huge. They’re not even the biggest type. They put [i]cathedrals[/i] on those suckers! Plus I find it comical that instruction manuals and tech support have basically devolved into revered scriptures, holy rituals, and ancient traditions just so it lasts longer.[/spoiler]
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I don't know, saying that "space racism isn't racism" is kind of a weird mindset if you ask me. Like, sure, you could argue that they're not real, and that makes it something different, but when you get right down to it, people who are willing to buy into space racism are showing a propensity for adopting a "us vs them" mindset, which is where real life racism stems from as well. And the idea of using fictional differences between people as a stand-in for real life ones is very, very common. Like, that's the whole premise of X-Men is it's an allegory for racism. If the Imperium aren't space racists, then that's really weird, because almost every time I see someone shouting about heresy or whatever, they're also dehumanizing aliens, for lack of a better word. Depersonizing? [spoiler]Everything being so big and powerful is actually the second reason I really don't like Warhammer. I hate when things are on that scale of power. :p[/spoiler]
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Edytowany przez użytkownika Sumpig-2: 10/26/2024 8:09:56 AMIt’s less of a “it’s not racism” and more of a “it shouldn’t be translating to actual racism, unless you haven’t looked at anything but memes” Also the half of the aliens are actively trying to wipe them out. That’s why they hate them. It’s not like everyone communicates freely either. Humanity lost a lot of knowledge in a technological dark age which made them ban AI and most smart devices. They have worked with some of the less extremist parts of other factions though. It’s just hard to trust beings that kill you for reasons you may not know or understand. The heresy stuff is separate from the spacism, and is because of the Horus Heresy, which saw half of the Imperium and 9 of the Emperor’s Sons turn to Chaos, which is unquestionably evil, though their intentions may have been good, it was twisted by Chaos. The four Chaos Gods embody War, Trickery, Disease, and Desire, but like the bad kind. It’s easy to get corrupted and once you do, there is very little chance of normal people coming back so they bring a scorched earth vibe when it comes to that. [spoiler]edit: As someone who’s particular about power scaling, there’s some alright reasons on why they’re not everywhere. Main one being the fact that the Imperium doesn’t know how to rebuild most of its things (instruction manuals have been converted to scriptures and rituals for longevity). And there’s so few of them that they save it for when necessary. Same goes for most other big things. Scarcity or Irreparability. [/spoiler]
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I guess, the way I look at it, is while endorsing in fictional space racism isn't a 1-to-1 guarantee you'll be a real racist too, people who are willing to endorse space racism are much more likely to endorse real racism as well. Or, if not racism specifically, some sort of other prejudice. Because simply put, while being racist against something fictional is certainly more tame, it is still the same underlying attitude that leads to real racism. And, like, having an enemy is different than being racist towards them. Like, just because your allied faction is up against a faction of evil robots doesn't mean you go around calling all robots clankers or something, y'know? So while considering the race of giant enemy bugs or whatever is fine considering, y'know, they're trying to kill you, when you start running around calling all aliens "xeno scum" or some such, that's kind of an entirely separate thing. And even if in-universe the humans have worked with some of the less murdery aliens, that still doesn't change the fact that the fanbase takes that general anti-alien sentiment, and twists it into something much more nasty, calling any and all aliens--and even worse, in some cases just people who are different--and shouting all these dumb Warhammer memes at them. Which, like, no huge harm done if you're just slinging them at fictional alien races, but when they're thrown at real people--which does happen--it's straight up bullying. As I mentioned in my convo with Speaker, I know someone who left the forums specifically because all the Warhammer memes were being used to bully them, and people like them. And, continuing on the trail of the in-universe explanation for the memes being separate, the fanbase tends to take the space racism and the heresy stuff and walk with them hand in hand. [spoiler]Eh, even if they're not anywhere, the power scaling in Warhammer is just way too high for my tastes. Like, generally speaking, once you get to the point where an entire planet can be destroyed, that's already kinda pushing it, y'know? An entire planet getting destroyed makes the tragedy lose its meaning, because it's on a scale that we can't really comprehend. And, like, if Star Wars is already pushing the boundary where I consider it fine and dandy, then you can imagine Warhammer is way out there. It's just kinda boring when everyone's on that power scale. It's kind of one of the reasons I prefer Dragon Ball GT to Super, for example. Like, Dragon Ball has planet destroying dudes as early as the Saiyan Saga, but it never really happens until Frieza, and even then, not counting the hero team, there are very few people on that scale. Frieza, Cell, Buu, General Whatevers, Baby, and the three strongest Shadow Dragons, and that's it (Super 17 doesn't exist). And, 2 of those guys are only that strong because they're incorporating DNA from the other guys. But then, when we get to Super they just start beefing up the power levels to astronomically high, and nonsensical heights, and it's just bleh. Like, I don't care anymore. And that's kind of how Warhammer feels to me. Like, everyone is [i]so[/i] big and [i]so[/i] beefy that the actual power scaling loses all meaning. And admittedly, that's coming from an outside perspective, but the second most common thing you hear from Warhammer fans besides the space racism memes is how big and beefy the universe is.[/spoiler]
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I despise Warhammer fans online. That's a bit of a generalization, so let me be clear: I despise Imperium fans. Even those who are doing the whole "hur hur heresy" bit as a joke, it all wears thin. My usual practice for navigating Warhammer spaces online is finding folks who either ignore discourse (do painting and model creation or lore videos) or are explicitly and adamantly Xenos/Chaos fans. I guess most of us, even those pointedly against the Imperium, can get pretty insufferable still, Khorne junkies need to calm down shouting about blood and skulls every chance they get. I'm probably not much better constantly insisting upon "the strength and purity of steel" or the "holy machine spirits", but I digress. I won't try to sell the setting to you, but if you have actual interest in the aesthetics or stories of a particular faction, the Adeptus Ridiculous lore podcast is a great place to get like an hour-long primer, and Bricky in general is just a great guy.
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I don’t mind fanbases that evho memes over and over. I’ve got no problem with Dark Souls’ praise the sun for instance. I think the problem is—as I mentioned to Speaker below—the most prevalent meme in the Warhammer community is proudly proclaiming how racist you are, and joking or not it’s a little eugh.
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Second to Panzers recommendation on Bricky- Much more digestible than Luetin09. Also WesHammer is very intro friendly.
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[b][i]THE CODEX ASTARTES DOES NOT SUPPORT THIS ACTION!![/i][/b]
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sounds like heretic talk to me
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[quote]sounds like heretic talk to me[/quote]
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I've still to this day not met the fascists in the 40k community, and frankly- "fandoms" are filled with community trash, every one. If you've met real people like that, I'm honestly shocked and dismayed, but if you are more or less going by people saying naughty things on the internet, and memes calling people heretic or filthy chaos spawn or xenos scum. That's a bit of a bad metric, I would argue that the art community surrounding the Steven Universe fandom is worse if not more toxic than a fandom about war in the grim dark future... didn't some poor girl kill herself over bullying she received about a drawing of some gem character on Tumblr? Toxic elements exist in all fandoms, including ones that you yourself may participate in. I would say that your insinuation "Not all Warhammer players" is a bit off base when [i]most[/i] if not all the Warhammer players I have gamed with in person and online have only ever been geeky goobers who love to throw dice and talk about the lore. Just as well, most Steven Universe fans are not bullies trying to enforce some kind of fandom purity. I'm sure those people you describe exist, but i haven't met them, everyone i game with makes sure not to take the little plastic men/monsters too seriously
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Edytowany przez użytkownika The First Aifos: 10/24/2024 11:52:27 PMWhen it’s just a meme, it’s fine. Like, Badger posting the silly heretic thing below is whatever, but it’s when they drop the bit and they’re still kind of holding those views that it becomes kind of icky. And, like, if it was just one person, sure, but I’ve seen it several times over, which is really eugh, you know? Like, you think their silly space racism is a joke, but then you start seeing more of their interactions beyond just the meme, and they’re, like, genuinely racist or s*xist, and so on. And, I won’t name names, but I’ve seen it on these forums more than once. At least one of them was still around pretty recently, but I have them muted so I don’t know if they still are. I wouldn’t say it’s a common thing, but it’s not uncommon. As for the SU fandom stuff, I genuinely wouldn’t know. I love the show, but I’ve never really been a part of the community or anything. I know that every fandom has its bad eggs, but it feels like I’ve seen a lot of the genuinely icky Warhammer players, you know? Though admittedly, I have seen less of it more recently. Muting that one person may have had a hand in that, I feel like it may have just been pooling around them. Edit: And just to be clear, this isn’t a Warhammer exclusive problem. Any time you have a story about genuinely awful people you’ll always garner two types of fans: 1. People who have the literacy to realize the “heroes” are the bad guys/there are no heroes 2. People who identify with the awful heroes, and think the story is genuinely saying they’re the good guys.
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**Probably old news that I’m digging up, if so, don’t mind my ramblings. [quote]Edit: And just to be clear, this isn’t a Warhammer exclusive problem. Any time you have a story about genuinely awful people you’ll always garner two types of fans: 1. People who have the literacy to realize the “heroes” are the bad guys/there are no heroes 2. People who identify with the awful heroes, and think the story is genuinely saying they’re the good guys.[/quote] I know it’s probably not necessary anymore, but there [i]are[/i] heroes in Warhammer, just want that to be known. Usually it’s the tragic heroes and unsung heroes and such, as is with the Grim of the Dark. There are genuinely good people in the setting though. Those that want the best for their faction, but the Galactic war and politics and meddling of Chaos prevent them from doing it quickly. *the lore is currently in the Era where one of the Emperor’s sons is trying to fix things. Unfortunately, bugs appeared. [spoiler][i]Helsreach[/i] is a good one (there’s a free pdf if you google. Quite hooking), a last stand of 100 Black Templar space marines tasked to defend a Hive city along with the city guard and militia while their brothers fight in glory in orbit. And the planet is facing against the biggest Ork hoard in recorded history (the planet has been attacked two other times by Orks. It’s speculated that it’s a Ork homeworld, but no one knows for sure. Definitely not the people living there right now.) Great character developments and clash of ideologies, and the author does a good job humanizing the otherwise displaced super soldiers. [/spoiler] [spoiler]sorry, I just don’t have time to post recently, so most of my responses are 15 discussions and 12 developments behind. The last post was cut down for simplicity and was not proofread so I’m not as sure of how it sounded compared to how it was. I may be repeating myself too. *personally I think hate is a little strong of a word for something not responsible for a meme fan’s behavior, but I get what you mean by it. I try not to judge if I haven’t seen anything or if I don’t understand the root cause, but it sucks that that stuff happened. I suppose it’s just the feeling of wanting people to know a thing is much more nuanced than the aspect it presents to the public or some fans make it out to be. Not like I do better though. Way too much lore for a quick post. **Again, probably old news that I’m digging up, or probably answered by speaker or someone already. if so, don’t mind my ramblings. Gnight.[/spoiler]
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The idea of a "world without heroes" isn't usually 100% literal. It's less the idea that "there are literally no heroes here at all" and more, "the world is such a sucky place that basically nobody's a hero, and those that are tend to get beaten down pretty quick". It's not really my thing.
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[quote]I know that every fandom has its bad eggs, but it feels like I’ve seen a lot of the genuinely icky Warhammer players, you know? [/quote] I think the association; while not undeserved is a bit unfair. But, again, I don't game with those people and I don't participate in "fandoms". If it's not your thing it's not your thing. that's fine. But I feel that most players- recognize the setting for what it is: over the top grimdark sci-fi fantasy. These themes of fascism and racism aggrandized as "necessary" in the books and lore of Warhammer, in a real world plagued by those very things is a reflection of reality that makes many people uncomfortable, I imagine, and that's the point. The day that people are not discomfited by the Grimdark Future, will be the day it's no longer the grimdark future. I think it's fewer than you think [quote]Though admittedly, I have seen less of it more recently. Muting that one person may have had a hand in that, I feel like it may have just been pooling around them.[/quote] I rest my case
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[quote]But, again, I don't game with those people and I don't participate in "fandoms". [/quote] One of Old Badger's gaming commandments, or at the least a very strong recommendation... [b][i]"Thou shalt not game with someone you would not sit down and have a drink with." [/i][/b] It has served me very well over the years. If I wouldn't spend a half hour or so drinking & talking with someone, there's no way in hell I'm going to spend three or four hours pushing plastic with them either. I value my time more than that.
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Good mantra, I'll drink to that.
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I don’t know, it’s not the grimdark future that puts me off about it—though, I don’t really have much of an interest in grimdark—it’s that people [i]don’t[/i] tend to be put off by the fact that it’s Grimdark. I don’t know, I guess just when the most prevalent meme in the fanbase is all about shouting how proudly racist you are—joking or not—it just feels a little icky. Warhammer fans shout about heresy and whatnot as much as Dark Souls fans shout about praising the sun, but unlike praising the sun, the meme isn’t just silly & harmless. I know at least one person who left the Bungie forums specifically because people were bullying them by throwing Warhammer memes about how awful they were, and deserved to be murdered or whatever.
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Edytowany przez użytkownika The Spoken: 10/25/2024 5:58:31 PMWhen did that happen? Also- man- what a judgemental position to take on a fictional franchise, and the folks who enjoy it. One guy is hardly "all these Warhammer players". Maybe you should look deeper into why you feel that way- perhaps the "ickyness" you are describing is simply a matter of your differing taste and disinterest in the meme and not some underlying cryptofascism-racism conspiracy. Where are examples of "all these Warhammer players" engaging in something other than a fictional meme? When was the last time someone was murdered "for the emperor"? Slender man has a higher body count than Warhammer. Apologies, I find a lot of your critique of the community to be a bit misinformed. Like I said, while it may not be entirely undeserved, it's certainly unfair, given the overwhelming positive group of diverse people I've met and gamed with.
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I don't know the specific wheres and whens of how they were bullied off the forums. The way they described it, it wasn't a single isolated incident, it was something consistent and repeated. They didn't make a big show about leaving or anything, though, they left quietly without telling anyone. I only know about it because they told me about it later on Discord. In any case, I said earlier that it "pooled around one person", not that it [i]was[/i] a single person, and I think the reason it pooled around them was because they encouraged genuinely nasty behavior, but, like, the people around them also didn't seem to treat it as just silly haha funnies. Like, they would start with the meme, but then outside of the bit, they'd continue with similarly awful behaviors. Just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with the story having these themes. Stories have dark themes all the time, and that's a good thing. They bring these issues to light, and expose them for the gritty reality they can be. Grimdark stories aren't my thing, but I have no problem with them existing. The problem is that it's getting turned around and shone in a more, for lack of a better word, "sympathetic" light though its memification, and then the people who do genuinely think that way start using the memes as an excuse to carry out and justify their genuinely harmful mindsets. It's sort of like if Lol*ta fans started making a bunch of memes about how the protag was actually a hopeless romantic or something, and those memes became the first thing you saw about the book. Like, ew. And I'm not saying anyone's going around killing people for their silly heretic memes (though as mentioned is is occasionally used for bullying). That's kind of taking things to the extreme. I just think that the prevalence of this very not-nice sentiment being thrown around everywhere by Warhammer fans--joking or not--is kind of bleh. No thank you, you know? And once again, to be clear, I don't think this applies to everyone in the fanbase. If I thought all Warhammer fans were horrible people, I just wouldn't have said anything at all. You, Panzer, Badger, ya'll are great folk, and y'all obviously love Warhammer, so it's not like enjoying Warhammer makes you an awful person. I just think there's a genuinely unhealthy mindset that circulates through a not-insignificant portion of the playerbase. I wonder to some extent, though, if this is just because the faction that supports these mindsets are human, and it's either seen as a sense of kinship, like no matter how bad they are at least they're "our people", or if we're just used to seeing humans as the good guys in most sci-fi, so these players are just accepting humanity as the heroes without putting too much thought into it. *shrug*
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Edytowany przez użytkownika The Spoken: 10/28/2024 2:18:51 PMFair enough. I guess the stigma enforces a bit of defensive mindset. I don't like anyone who takes video games too seriously. Life is far too short, and that goes for plastic monsters on a tabletop. I honestly wish people were just more decent to one another.
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I hope it didn’t come off as me just trying to be mean for the sake of it. Being mean wasn’t my intention, just sharing my opinion on the topic at hand.
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No, of course not. :)
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I like the orcs
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[quote]I really hate the Warhammer series[/quote]
