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Edited by kellygreen45: 10/1/2021 5:32:25 PM
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No. But then that isn't Bungie's agenda. Their agenda is to use it as bait to keep you engaged and playing the raid for as long as you're willing to endure the frustration. The progression system in the main game (Milestones and Pinnacle) have the same agenda. Break the relationship between player time investment....and rate of progression.
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  • If people want the PvP side of the game to work like that then the PvE stuff should work like that too. Its a dose of their own medicine and that dose is going to get a lot bigger once more new people are drawn into the game by some of the other stuff they have planned.

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  • No idea what you're driving at.....

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  • Edited by A_mo: 10/1/2021 7:18:59 PM
    Well, I've just been thinking about how all the PvE mains who get mad about having a rough time when they have to face people who play PvP a lot are going to feel once more new people start showing up as a result of some of the "New Media" stuff they have planned. This game is not going to be rewarding time played if and when that starts to happen. And I'm going to enjoy watching some of these people who have around 2000+ hours or so (which is not even all that much) having to have their effort cheapened in the name of "fairness."

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  • Edited by Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 10/1/2021 5:52:03 PM
    I agree. However, it does reach a point where it has the opposite effect and people then play less. I wish they would practice moderation when it comes to this. I wish they would balance it instead of leaving a mechanic that can get out of control and cause frustration, and even resentment.

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  • [quote]However, it does reach a point where it has the opposite effect and people then play less[/quote] Yep. Which is why I say that ethical business is GOOD business....in the long run. But we have a corporate culture right now that is obsessed with short-term thinking and short-term rewards. Angry and Frustrated customers may play your game more in the short-run...but they don't tend to be LOYAL customers in the long run. I think this was one of MANY conflicts between Bungie and toxic culture over at ActivisionBlizzard that we are becoming more aware of. I think Activision didn't care about the long-term. They just wanted as much play time and money squeezed out of us on a quarterly basis, as was human possible. Bungie, OTOH, I think was more interested in cultivated a long term approach and a long term plan. As it was their game and their reputation on the line, while I think AB's plan was to discard the franchise and discard Bungie when they ceased to be useful and profitable. [quote]I wish they would practice moderation when it comes to this.[/quote] I think they are. They just need time and manuevering room to unwind the MESS that AB created....and to accumulate the resources they need to do this the right way. Before the announcement of "Unification fo Vision" the summer for Shadowkeep dropped, I was so frustrated with the direction this game was going, I was ready to leave it. But I like the direction teh game is going since them....and I see real progress on this front. Its just not going as fast as I'd like....and raid exotics (and the Pinnacle/Milestone progression systems) are two areas of "holdover' from the days of Activision that the game hasn' gotten around to getting rid of yet. I think Bungie will get rid of them. But not before they address their inability to create enough loot for the game. Which---according to Joe Blackburn----they are aggressively hiring in an effort to fix. [quote] I wish they would balance it instead of leaving a mechanic that can get out of control and cause frustration, and even resentment.[/quote] I think that is their ultimate goal. But this is like turning around a modern Supercarrier battle group in the open ocean. It's going to take a lot of time.....and a lot of space....to do it.

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  • I’d like to think that but I guess I’m just too skeptical. Or maybe a pessimist. I don’t know. I have found that being realistic as pessimistic are two sides of the same coin. Either way, their silence on the matter is just as frustrating as the issue itself. The forums are flooded with it and…. nothing. Even a simple, we hear and we’re working on it would be appreciated and go a LONG way for some people. It feels like they aren’t being transparent like they said they would. This isn’t some issue that requires a fundamental overhaul or anything. It’s just a drop rate issue.

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  • Bungie refusing to address this makes is so much worse. I know they see the 100's of threads every single week about Vex, but they say nothing.

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  • Edited by kellygreen45: 10/1/2021 6:27:10 PM
    A relationship is a door that swings both ways. Part of why we (the community) gets treated the way we are has to do with how we (as a community) behaves. As a group we act like a caged animal whose handlers have a legitimate fear of getting their hands bitten off if they get too close. IOW, we act with a level of immaturity and entitlement that make it clear that we cannot handle transparency responsibly. Bungie used to give us those "We have heard you, and we're working on it." updates.....and we turned them into a meme...and hurled it back in Bungie's face. They are more transparent that they were in the past....but that is becasue that is simply a commitment they've made to doing business. Not because we've shown ourselves to be worthy of it....or that we could handle it responsibly. IOW, if we want respect....then we need to show respect. But that notion is utterly lost on some of us. Anyway. Skepticism is healthy, as long is it doesn't turn into cynicism. What people SAY is all well and good....but watch what people DO. That's where they show you who the really are and what their values really are. As someone who has played these kinds of games for decades, I LIKE what I'm seeing Bungie do over the last 2 years. It isn't perfect....it hasn't gone far enough. But it is DEFINITELY moving in the right direction...and CONSISTENTLY so. Which is a HUGE improvement from the floundering and the this-games-identity-is-whatever-those-in-power-at-Bungie-say-it-is that we had for the 5 years prior to that.

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  • Edited by Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 10/1/2021 6:34:37 PM
    I agree for the most part. I got several people back into just before Beyond Light. It just feels like certain issues are returning in the same or new forms. I don’t know how to say it other than it seems like they are starting to be stingy with rewards again. It’s like we have all this new loot every season, but the drop rates or acquisition methods aren’t great. It’s starting to feel like the few remaining things I have to pursue once I’ve done whatever new there is to keep up with story wise aren’t worth the time investment because I can’t do anything to increase my chances of getting what I’m pursuing, so once I do my weekly routine I don’t play again for a week. Which was a major issue in D1. Just doing that Tuesday cycle. I don’t want to see that return.

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  • Because some issues haven't been fixed. ...and one of those issues is a lack of loot....and a lack of loot VARIETY. And Bungie is still relying on stinginess and throttling progression as a way to get around this deficit and keep us playing. Which is why I said that the changes haven't gone far enough. But the blogs from Joe Blackburn state that Bungie is aware of this....and are hiring aggressively to increase the ability to create loot for the game. [i][b](We have heard and we are working on it.....) [/b][/i]

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  • Edited by Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 10/1/2021 6:55:07 PM
    It’s funny because lack of loot hasn’t really been an issue for me since Beyond Light dropped. Between that and the new perks every season I haven’t complained about having loot to chase. Just the ways in which I can chase it. The playlist exclusive weapon drops are low, we’re back to pure limited weekly RNG for raid exotics, they’re now limiting tier 3 umbral focusing weekly. Like I’d actually be playing right now if I hadn’t already done another failed week of going for Vex(while watching others get second and even third drops), used up my tier 3 focusing chances(of which I never get the weapon I want to drop let alone the perks), or could increase my chance for playlist exclusive drops, etc. I can exhaust everything I have left to go for in a given week on Tuesday and what’s left doesn’t feel worth the time because of how low the chance is, and it’s this early in the season. Of a very LONG season. I don’t want it to be the only game I play but that’s too quick to reach that point. I feel like I’m already just waiting for December but the Vex situation has me so annoyed that I may just not play for a while.

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  • [quote]It’s funny because lack of loot hasn’t really been an issue for since Beyond Light dropped[/quote] It is. The lack of sunsetting just sweeps the problem under the rug and hides it by creating the illusion that there is enough loot. But that illusion creates OTHER problems that are hobbling this game right now. This is a problem that has to be addressed, and fortunately Bungie realizes this. [quote]Just the ways in which I can chase it.[/quote] That can only be addressed so much. Because you break the game if you give the player too much agency. But the game can be frustrating when you have a "world loot pool" that feels like one of those carnival machines where there hundresd of prizes and the thing tortures you while you try to find the thing you want. [quote]The playlist exclusive weapon drops are low, we’re back to pure limited weekly RNG for raid exotics, they’re now limiting tier 3 umbral focusing weekly.[/quote] Not the same issue. The playliste weapons are a issue of lack of loot. They have to keep the drop rates low otherwise you'd quickly get the roll you wanted and leave. Raid exotics are just bad design. YOu should NEVER both TIME gate AND limit access to a loot item via low drop rates. That's abusive...and its why I don't chase raid exotics. Ever. LImiting the Teir 3 umbrals is protecting the player from themselves. This game doesn't have a loot table that is deep enough or varied enough to allow unlimited agency. YOu'd get what you want in a week or two...and then complain that there is nothing to do and nothing to chase. [quote]I can exhaust everything I have left to go for in a given week on Tuesday and what’s left doesn’t feel worth the time, and it’s this early in the season.[/quote] ...and that speaks to playing the game in a narrow way....and why are you dismissing such large segments of the loot pool? PVP, perhaps?

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  • Edited by Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 10/1/2021 7:10:25 PM
    I might agree with what you said about playlist exclusive drops except that I have never gotten the roll I wanted on more than half of them. To the point that it seems like a pointless pursuit. Arguably I could have grinded more crucible and gambit but I’m not into them enough for them to alleviate the lack of endgame or something else PvE to do. That being said, even the strike exclusive drops have never proven fruitful because they are so rare, and the more they add to it, the less likely to get what we want out of it. This is why I am excited for weapon crafting and hope that they add the older stuff to it sooner rather than later. As for PvP, I don’t enjoy it enough to play it regularly. Neither does anyone in my groups and going solo is painful. It has never felt balanced to me and that has made it frustrating more often than not. The story of Destiny PvP feels like this never ending pursuit for them to find some semblance of balance but that will never happen because there is just too much to account for. I don’t like PvP games with rigid metas. That makes them feel stale to me really quickly.

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  • Edited by kellygreen45: 10/1/2021 7:16:01 PM
    I think we're getting into issues of temperment at this point. Everyone has a "set point" that represents their need-for-novelty. This is largely, biologically wired into us. It makes one person feel the need to travel the world and constantly see and do new things....while someone else is a homebody that is content to curl up on the couch with book. Loot games are GRIND games....and generally appeal to people with relatively low-need-for-novelty I am such a person. Which means I'm a creature of habit...and I have a few thiings that I do for enjoyment that I've done for years. Opting for depth of experience rather than breadth. Doing something "new" just to say that "I've done it"....has very little appeal to me. One isn't better than the other..they're just different. Shooter gamers...and PVP games tend to appeal to people who have a high-need for novelty...and people who are wired that way tend to get bored easily and get frustrated with the "repetitiveness" of lot games. Then there are people in the middle. What I'm hearing suggest that you are hitting up against a wall that represents that you need more novelty than a game like this can provide by itself....and not so much an issue of game design

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  • I enjoyed reading your posts on this. I'm 0-56 after my 3 runs this week trying to get Vex, and I've never been so frustrated as I am right now. It's the first time in a very long time that I didn't continue playing after finishing my 3 Vogs. Waiting 7 days just to be disappointed again has just worn me down. I had the same issue in D1 with Vex, but I never got frustrated even after double the clears I have in D2. I was still in highschool then so maybe getting older has something to do with it.

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  • [quote]I enjoyed reading your posts on this. I'm 0-56 after my 3 runs this week trying to get Vex, and I've never been so frustrated as I am right now.[/quote] That's just abusive. It really is. Bungie should be embarrassed.

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  • Yeah, it doesn't feel great. It's ruined the joy you get when getting an exotic like this, if it ever drops it'll just be a relief instead. I can't finish the Fate Breaker title, but the worst thing is there's no drop protection, so it could take another 56 clears before it drops. I'm assuming there's no drop protection since Bungie won't confirm if there is.

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  • Nice to see that you are being pulled in by the Gamblers Fallacy, and realize that there is no firm end in sight here. This is why I refuse to get on that hamster wheel, and why I consider this kind of loot system abusive. Not only could you find yourself having to go through another 50 clears, and not being able to enjoy it when it finally does drop? You might not be able to get those clears because the raid is losing its relevance. The only hope at this point is the fact that the weapon is pvp meta, so pvp players may hop in and start grinding for it. But without that buff it received? You’d have been screwed even more than you are right now. 😡

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  • You're right, I keep telling myself I'm not going to run it again, but I know at reset on Tuesday I'll be begging clan mates to run it with me. You're also right about finding people to run it with, it's getting harder to find a team every week. If it doesn't drop this reset, the following weeks will be difficult to do because FC6 and a few other games are releasing so I'll be playing those.

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  • Edited by Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 10/1/2021 7:28:43 PM
    I’m not sure honestly. I used to play a ton of PvP games before Destiny. A TON. Played nothing but Halo 2 and 3 for literally years. Then CoD for a bit. Tried some Battlefield here and there in between. I’ve never been super competitive so I’m not sure why I was so into them. They eventually just weren’t appealing anymore. I got more into stories and universes. I don’t think I’m the “novelty” person. At least not in the way that you described. I definitely stay in. I’d read more if I didn’t have an issue focusing while doing so and retained information better from it. I have no inherent need to be social just for the sake of it or go out and see the world. Now if I could go out and see the universe that might be a different story. Which is probably why I got I of fictional universes so heavily. Mainly science fiction. I don’t mind repetition if it’s fun and rewarding. I’m big on routine and things being orderly in that sense. I don’t like sudden unannounced change. I like to plan and then go through with it. I don’t know, I guess I’m just finding it disappointing that Destiny can’t be my escape right now because it just isn’t satisfying enough at the moment. I feel like a bunch of little disappointments have all built up and the Vex situation is the thing that puts me over the edge of what I feel like dealing with right now.

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  • I'd beg to differ. But that's splitting hairs. Bottomline is that we have have a need for newness. Even with my low need for novelty I still get tired of the game from time to time and need a break. One of the issues I've been dealing with is that I usually deal with it by hopping to a different game. The Division 2 was usually teh game I went to when I needed a break from Destiny....but that game is dead right now as Massive decides what they are going to do with it. So now I've started watching TV again to fill the time that is no longer being occupied by Destiny since Covid has thinned out the game world right now...and theare just aren't many good games right now. I though the remastered version of Diablo 2 would hit the spot....but it was a whiff. The game has aged poorly...and I found it more annoying to play than enjoyable. Even though I loved it back in the day, its day has passed.

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  • I’m basically in the same boat. Been watching TV instead and occasionally reading. I have friends that also gave Diablo 2(I never played it) a shot that had basically the same reaction as you. They are already playing different things now. I blew through the Mass Effect(my favorite series) trilogy remaster and now I’m just waiting for the Witcher and Cyberpunk next gen upgrades so I can revisit them. Assuming we even get them? Who knows with CDPR at this point.

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