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Destiny 2

Discuss all things Destiny 2.
6/17/2019 1:33:25 PM
168

Why "must KWTD" is the outcome of a not optimal Raid difficulty design

just to get this out of the way: - yea i did all the raids.. - yes i know the standard "make your own raid group if you dont like it"- argument - yes you can personally do whatever you want. - i dont care what YOU personally did or not did to find yoru raid group.. - its not "nerf the raid" request - and no the raids are not "too hard" its not about this.. move on please.. for the rest: i would love to start discussing why the omnipotent all reoccuring "mustKWTD" or short "MKWTD" in combination of "must have 2 Billion legit clears" shows about the Raid difficulty scaling and setting, as well as the overall raid structure.. when i first raided (my ever first raid of all times) i had a level 26 char with a blue scout rifle and i found my team on destinylfg.net and we cleared the vault of glass afetr a whooping 8 hours of trying and testing.. and it was undoubtly great and awesome when that sucker atheon finally died.. i raided him several times after this and even made several warlocks to get more chances to actually get up level 30 to not be "forever29" (which i failed to do and i used the iron banner to get to max level finally) so by that time finding a raid team was basically expressing the wish to raid and sure as hell there would be a raid team to pick you up since raiders were rare and groups were constantly searching for people brave enough to raid.. there was no "will teach" and no " must KWTD or kick". it was just "you raid?, cool you in". then crotas end came and it was even more inviting since some real badasses wouldbe able to solo the raid and could carry an entire team but it was always room for errors and revives even if completely clutched .. so you could have several grades of raiders that were able to contribute. you had the professional that knew the raid and knew all paths on the one end and the complete noob that just needed a direction in which he had to shoot and stay alive.. roles were pretty much fixed and you culd learn by being there and watching and maybe trying a run or two.. so getting into a raid was a given and you did not even needed to know everything just how to shoot your gun. in kingsfall this basic idea changed by defult for the first time.. you had random elements in the raid that made a random choice for the "chosen one".. but with the normal raid you could just "jump off" and give the role to the next guy (for example in the throne room) and have this taken care of in this way.. leviathan was pretty much supplying the team with a role for everyone. you needed to know all parts but it was pretty much okay to just learn the exercise and then rinse and repeat. you had special roles like the shadowrealm or other occasions but in general everyone needed to do "the job" and needed to know "the job".. until spre of starts where the final battle was quite mind boggling conoluted and you needed to memorize a ton of sequences to best the final boss.. and even afetr you did this you had to run to your orb and throw it successfully or the team was wiping.. ... and people were complaining and more and more "KTWD" came up since all raid team members needed to know the drill to successfully clear an encoutner.. then as time went by people discovered glitches and cheats and some raid clears were just "kill the boss" so with the last wish raid releasing there was a crap ton of communication and hidden mechanics that on top of staying alive required to not only knowing what to do but also to communicate flawless or you had to wipe (well actually the game did this to you) so the raids went from an exited activity that people were eager to complete in order to gte to max light and get that awesome loot.. to a chore. people HAD to be experienced and had to have at least several clears and had to be quick and had to speedrun the activity .. why? well you could get loot and max light everywhere. the raids lost their "new thing" factor and the loot was "meh" at best.. there have been plenty of no raid-gear options that outshined the raid gear by far. and the current raids require a TON of knowledge.. Datto said it quite nicely in one of his streams.. the difficulty of the raids is in the knowledge not the skill of gunplay .. especially with well and shards and skull and more .. now i remember wrath of the machine being a quite enjoyable raid with a lot of very interessting encoutners, views and mechanics and it left room for talk in between the encoutners, exploration and there have been some secrets involved and you still could fail several times and still clutch the raid encoutner.. now we have raid encounters like eow and cods (and i think SOTP can be named also as one since its not a full raid) that have a quite huge entry barrier (= knowledge) but a low skill ceiling . in last wish i still have no clue about the vault since noone wanted to explain it..and i never did riven the legit way since none of the raid teams wanted to do this.. so i am lacking knowledge and i could not participate in the active part of the encounter since i am not trained in how to do it..(read it) and here is where this infamous "KWTD" comes to play.. people are not seeking for enthusiastic raiders to get into that adventure anymore.. they want people who dont need any explanation do not require any introduction and know everything by hearth.. already.. and have the proof to show this. i already read some mad requirements like "must have 10+ clears" seriously? why would i run with you if i already have 10 clears? isnt that "over" then? i know that you can run the last wish for 50 times and still the 100 voices wont drop but by that time i would long have moved on. I got Anarchy on my first run.. and that wsa the raid for me. UNLESS some filks asked me for a run to train them and it was good once we eliminated the randoms.. now randoms are NOT the issue.. really.. the standard random that does the raid for the first time is NOT the issue.. as long as they are patient enough.. works for me.. i tought eow and they managed to kill the boss ont he second day.. all fine.. o SOTP i had 3 guy from the clan and 2 guys radoms who somehow expected a KWTD run.. and although i explained it to them that this is a slow run and we will figure it out and that i will NOT run key functions sicne i want other players to experience this and learn this.. in total 4 guys quit after one to two runs that did not result in a success.. and thats bad. the expectation of KWTD is prepping players for a "6:45 speedrun by Gladd" style session.. but thats not enjoyable.. and having to get out and finding a new guy resulted in having 2 randoms backing out and we spend way to long in trying to find a replacement.. (and guided games did absolutely NOT work at all.. -.-) so currently the final boss of any raid is the LFG section , the community section or the find fireteam section of the third plarty applications that you are forced to go to in order to find people and its frustrating.. also the KWTD mantra somehow have players expect that we clear this today , now , immediately .. when i might just have time for the first two encounters.. now we migth all agree on the fact that a simple matchmaking as it is in strikes doesnt work.. with no options the wendigo farm has become a chore for strike players and having to constantly lose to your own team just camping the portal or just doing their hush bow kills in gambit is also not helping the game modes.. (and dont get me started with crucible. where i shoudl never see recluse or LH or NF unless i got them too. since my rank is so utterly below thos eguys who got their pinnacle weapons that i shoudl never see the barrel of said guns if the matchmaking would match fair and competitive instead of "placefiller, desperately looking to start a game " (which then drives away even more players and the whole shit detoriates until really on pinnacle users are left to play pinnacle users in sweaty matches 24/7) so what needed here is an overhaul of the entire matchmaking system.. with way more options than currently avaliable.. you want solo strikes. tickbox you want two teammates for nightfall? tickbox you want a game lobby and look for others tha can raid? yeah apply here, select your players and if you are okay with them invite them to chat . have minimum lightlevel, clears (if you have to) and microphone as tickboxes and check out their loadout before you invite them to your fireteam. some with every other activity in the game.. you want to broadcast the need for two nightfall players to your clan only? tickbox you want to get two in for pvp bounties? tickbox? clans only? tickbox.. the biggest barrier to play with my clan is that i simply cant ask them until they somehow have joined a community or have a computer near them with a discord app.. i cant even ask them if they need help until i went through the chore to ask them, one by one, via the inbuild playstation message function.. and that needs to change.. in game..

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  • update. just had a couple of tries to get the second run finished on CoS and i died about one billion times due to wipe mechanics. see i did not die due to missing shots , i did not die due to missing jumps, not to not paying attention to adds. nor the ogres or knights.. (yea i did die to an oger once.. yep, tried to get to him form the front, that was not working since i wasnt able to stun him with my shotgun fast enough) i died to crystals exploding on the other side of the map.. 90% also i noticed that the teams i was in was not using a loadout that they were confidential to use.. they used tractor cannon and grenade launcher and needless to say they all played as if reaching the first damage phase was the end.. and you do not need to save same thoughts for after the damage phase. so basically they go in with the goal to one phase the boss and to noone surprise that doesnt pan out as expected.. people using loadouts that they are not familiar with and generallt not confident to use. The first "must have Raven GL with Spike " surfaced and people tend to forget that this was a.) done on PC and b.) done by complete raid teams that could easily down the boss in the normal way.. so instead of getting your loadout and stay save and get the boss down in two damage phases which is perfectly doable. The teams form around the most prominent structure to do it the fastest way.. i am not a big fan of immune phases.. but this time , just for the "normal" mode i would have maximum damage phases like with suro chi and remove the revive tokens. please note that i never died to a time out from no revive tokens since most of the crystals have you die much faster .. so please dont go for curated loadouts if you just want to kill the boss .. do it normally first then try the shortcut.. and if you dont knwo how to transfer the buff. ask.. and for the team.. tell.. always take the 1 or 2 minutes to briefly go ove rhow YOU do the encounter.. it can be as trivial as where to stand during the damage phase..

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  • I think the issue is a legitimate one. Even in WoW you didn't need to KWTD to do a raid. People just asked for a tank or a healer or a dps build. They intelligently assumed a tank knew how to well...tank! Mechanucs were clear enough that you didnt scratch your head thinking wtf do I do to even dps tjis thing. Bungies raid mechanics have gone down hill consistantly. Last wish being the absolute worst for mechanics with oryx and vault being the best. Aksis coming a close second. Crown is just tedious and all for an smg....yea no thanks

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    • Agreed, the last wish raid actually made me delete the game.

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    • That is quite the wall-o-text

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    • Edited by Maske: 6/18/2019 12:27:30 PM
      11
      Scrolled through comments, seems like people are missing the point by a mile. All they do is talk about entitled noobs and whether KWTD is a legit req or not. The point is about raids themselves, about their mechanics that don't allow you to learn on the fly or compensate your lack of knowledge with your shoot-and-survive skills. This, I believe, is a very interesting and deep topic, yet y'all make it into that rotten noobs-vs-pros argument...

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      • It's kind of sad how Bungie puts all this time and effort into their Raids and only a very very small percentage of players even plays the content. I think with the new menagerie raid they seem to be testing the waters of what players like about raiding and what more they could tweak by adding mechanics to make it more MMO like as WoW (luke smith). I was never a big raider, only have a handful of clears and sometimes get kicked for not having an emblem or having my stats looked at and only showing a clear of 1. I think for some that get treated that way was off putting, but I can't wait to see what the future holds with the new direction we are heading into for the game across the board.

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        • Every raid group I've been in recently has been a "kwtd" group, however, a majority of the time most of the people in the raid have no clue what they're doing. It's rather annoying. If you post "Levi - need 2 - kwtd", then please know what the hell you're doing.

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          • As a destiny 1 beta player and a day one VoG clearer I can sum it up on one sentence the KWTD is because players don't want to teach because they want a fast and easy raid clear.

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          • Thats alot to read... But basically i wouldnt want to spend even more time teaching blueberries every encounter everytime i wanna run a raid. Idk about everyone else but i wouldnt like to spend 3+ hours in a raid.

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          • I feel as if Bungie may be testing the water a little bit with the Menagerie for some reason. But as I’ve always maintained, I understand the LFG KWTD requirement as a result of most Destiny players not being able to help with simple objectives in something as mundane as crucible Control matches.

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          • tl;dr [spoiler]hi.[/spoiler]

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          • I really felt the major shift in design with Kings Fall. Raids were starting down the path of mechanic heavy with a full team wipe punishment. I loved VoG and Crota, and I tried giving Leviathan a chance, but D2's raids weren't fun for me like VoG or Crota were. Which is a shame, since the loot from raids is usually some of the better gear, and there's no alternative paths to get specific items, leaving player who don't like certain content either forced into it or left without those rewards. Personally I think the Menagerie does raids better than the actual raids. Matchmaking with light mechanics plus modifiers, I might actually get the season pass now so I can play it more.

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          • KWTD is out there because players time is important and they don't always or perhaps ever want to struggle through the early stages of someone who hasn't been in the raid. Personal preferences on success. Don't blame experienced players for not wanting to raid with inexperienced players.

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            • The problem is a whole bunch of players quit this game already. I had a clan and we used to raid Leviathan. After curse of osiris and the other dlcs I had nobody and LFG never helped at all. They all ask to be high light level day 1 from the raid's release, have a certain weapon or KWTD. It's annoying at this point.

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              • While you do raise valid arguments, I think it just goes to show that raids have progressed over the years. Wether you like this more mechanic heavy focus (which I do) it’s nice to see raids start to become challenging. Raids like VoG and Crota were push overs even after the week of release. That’s not to say the new raids haven’t become pushovers, but they now require to focus on mechanics rather then simply live through an encounter

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              • Edited by Random Hero 53: 6/18/2019 1:53:49 AM
                [quote]there was no "will teach" and no " must KWTD or kick". it was just "you raid?, cool you in".[/quote] This is in large, why I went from a D1 raid veteran to [i]never [b]completing[/b][/i] a raid in D2. People just brought me in, and I killed ads for everyone, and learned as I went. When D2 hit, I would spend sometimes close to 2 hours [i]trying[/i] to find a group for leviathan, just to get invited to a party, and [i]"interviewed"[/i] like I applied for a job. Then people get all kinds of butthurt when I say I have not, and [i]will [b]not[/b][/i] watch some streamers 4 hour tutorial video on the raid. The [i]only[/i] thing I even wanted from the leviathan raid was the HC anyways, but realized I [i]didn't [b]need[/b][/i] raid gear to hit max light, and chose not to subjugate myself to the [i]elitism[/i] that is lfg. Sad thing is, is I'm [i][b]not[/b][/i] the only person who feels that way, [i][b]and[/b][/i] raid stats back that up. It really [i]says [b]something[/b][/i] about raiding in D2 when only 4% of the population have [b]completed[/b] a raid, and actively do them. [b]edit:[/b] People need to re-read my 1st paragraph, before [i][b]assuming[/b][/i] they know what they're talking about. Not everyone [i][b]learns[/b][/i] from watching videos. Some, learn more from [i][b]hands on[/b][/i] experience. Apparently, that's a hard concept to grasp, and of course all the try hardest and neckbeards want to [b][i]assume[/i][/b] you're dead weight and want to be carried because you'd rather [i]learn from [b]playing.[/b][/i] The amount of salt over this, is sad and really shows the overall degenerative state of D1 raiding compared to D2 raiding, like OP was mentioning.

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                • I want to do the new raid 5his season, but I have yet to do it as I'm wanting to do it blind. I want to have fun. The fun of raiding is learning what works not by watching the world's first figure it out on the go and then use their strategy and weapon choices. I'm so tired of needing to be told how to do it or what to do rather than just play it and see the mechanics and figure it out for myself. That's the fun in games right? Being able to play a game and not need it to feel like a job. A job is something you should need to know what you're doing. I did the scourge raid blind and it went very well just slight tips here and there from other veterans of the raid. With all this talk about needing to know before hand is a main reason why this game is losing it's fun and a reason while I hardly ever raid now. I would like to raid and learn, but I've never done them in order to know. Everyone needs to stop trying for a speed-run at everything otherwise it will take forever to do the raid. I have yet to run last wish as the group I was with was having a hard finding a 6th for 2 hours instead of just going through with it. Two members quit out because of this. Sooo who would like to do a raid??

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                • I don't know what KWTD means, and at this point I'm too afraid to ask.

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                  • Edited by Wagooigi: 6/17/2019 10:41:37 PM
                    That attitude exists because the global society has become very self obsessed, self concerned and self absorbed. A bunch of dumbasses who think they are elite pro gamers because they’re losers at the rest of their life and minor successes in video games is all that they have. Most posting kwtd learned from someone else and aren’t willing to pay that kindness forward to someone else in need of learning. Simply put, I never go to lfg, it’s a shithole of the highest order and is completely useless to anyone looking to enjoy their play time.

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                    • In this thread: bads crying that they arent getting carried to awesome loot by more experienced players

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                    • tl;dr op needs to git gud

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                    • An easy solution would just be to bring back normal and hard mode raids. Normal mode for more casual raiders. A few mechanics to worry about. Hard mode for those who want a bigger challenge and better rewards. All the mechanics from normal mode plus a few new ones. And have two raid armor sets, one from normal, one from hard. Just like D1.

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                      • 1
                        Hunter Joe
                        Hunter Joe

                        Moon’s Haunted. - old

                        i kinda scrolled through and saw the size of this and decided not to read it. just gonna up vote and go on with my day.

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                        • You’ve described why I stopped raiding in the last year. I’ve been playing since D1 beta, used to raid most weekends. The community has gone from mostly decent to mostly toxic, in large part because of the Darto quote you mentioned. Nice writeup, good ideas...a bit long! 😂

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                        • I mean people can always just watch a 10 ~ 30min guide and do the raid just fine, there is also a discord server for LFG just go to sherpa slot and look for a guide there, also u mention you dont to raid to hit max light so really raid is just there for fun. If a person refuse to even read a guide or watch a 30min video on the raid then i'm sorry i would never invite that person to raid with, that shows the guy aren't willing to learn and the excuse of "learn as we go" is honestly not a great ideal. Not having a slightest ideal of what's going on and having to explain every 5min is just not fun. Side not 'KWTD' usually become a requirement because raiding is time consuming and people rather get it over and done with, having a newbie along can make a raid longer. people aren't really too keen in dropping 4 hour in a raid anymore. I say read up on a guide and watch a video before hopping on a raid, least the people will be more willing to let you in.

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                          • This ^^^^ A thousand times this! I agree with everything you wrote and it would make the game immensely more enjoyable to have the functionality that you're describing. I truly hope Bungie overhauls their systems and raid designs when it comes to D3 or in the next HUGE expansion.

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