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5/20/2019 4:32:49 PM
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I have. This community was this angry back in late 2017 when it was becoming clear that vanilla Destiny 2 didnt' have an end game.....that the PVP was a boring team-shooting fest....almost all the feedback we'd given about Destiny 1 had been ignored....and that Curse of Osiris wasn't going to fix any of those problems. The fact that the level of anger and frustration has RETURNED to that level is a really bad sign....and shows how little progress Bungie has made in terms of dealing with their customers.
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  • I don't really think there is much anger. Who cares about the changes. It's going to make the game better

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  • That’s debatable.

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  • No what this shows is that a lot of people are childish and can’t stand for change.

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  • You’re acting like it’s changed...

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  • It did for awhile. But, once again, Bungie can't seem to stand the prosperity. So they squandered that bit of community goodwill as well.

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  • [quote] The fact that the level of anger and frustration has RETURNED to that level is a really bad sign....and shows how little progress Bungie has made in terms of dealing with their customers.[/quote] I disagree to a point. The level of anger is much more pronounced now. Back then you still had a large number of posts defending Bungie. Now my perception is that they are few and far between of those defending the changes. There were many who were ostracized for forming an opinion back then on how Bungie kept lessening the “space magic”. Now, the train is overflowing and everybody is jumping on board. The difference now is that the amount of nerfs (to many who defended this game) is indefensible. They are literally taking away the “space magic” that in essence this game is about.

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  • [quote]Back then you still had a large number of posts defending Bungie. Now my perception is that they are few and far between of those defending the changes.[/quote] Disagree....to a point. There are fewer posts defending Bungie....but their actions have become harder to defend. But, imo, what is more damning is the kind of players who are no longer willing to defend what they were doing. With vanilla D2, Bungie had DISAPPOINTED the core of their player base, more than making them angry. Most of the people who left last year were people who weren't deeply in love with the game. Those people were willing to give Bungie the time-and-space they needed to repair the damage and restore the franchise. The problem is this business with cores, and now with the seeming return of the Nerf train.....they are pissing off some of their most dedicated players. The very players they were **claiming** they wanted to cater to most. Not only has Bungie failed to do this. They've disrespected that part of their player base by taking them for granted, and treating them as a "captive audience'. Because, once again, Bungie is showing that they really don't understand who their customers really are....or what they truly want from the experience of playing this game. Which is due to their unwillingness to come down out of their Ivory Tower and truly dialogue with this community....and their unwillingness to share power in the development process with their customers. So they are constantly trying to GUESS what it is we want. rather than simply ASKING us.

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  • in the end bungie has employees who are cancer to this game. They eventually regain power and then this happens again.

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  • I'm wondering if a Weisznewski protegee is in charge of the sandbox now that Hamrick has left.

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  • I think Luke Smith has risen to power again, back in time to ruin another Destiny game.

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  • Disagree. Everyone wants to blame him for vanilla Destiny 2. But I think he is the reason why vanilla D2 was as good as it was. He said and did a lot of little things----during the marketing push for Destiny 2---that led me to believe that he was not fully behind the way the game finally took shape. He even went as far as to actually distance himself from how the Crucible had been handled. At the time I was confused because I had no context in order to understand what I was seeing. But AFTER the game was released....it became VERY clear. I believe that when Smith took over Destiny 2, he got handed a game that had been designed like another Halo game....and he had to find a way to cram whatever RPG elements he could into a game that was basically designed to play like a campaign shooter long before he arrived there to take over. If those at Bungie genuinely thought that he was responsible for the flop that Destiny 2 was....they wouldn't have promoted him.

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  • Vanilla D2 was horrible so we are opposite ends of the spectrum on that one. Also since he came out of his cave and announced this is what a bungie lead version of Destiny, the game has come out with bad news after bad news. Taken king was along time ago. I have no reason to absolve him of the release and bad decisions after until Christopher Barret took over. Barrett who has disappeared seems to only show up once the game has bottomed out and he comes to fix things. My questions is why does he leave and allow others to ruin the game?

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  • I think you need to set aside your biases, and actually READ what I said. I didn't say that vanilla Destiny 2 was good. I SAID THAT SMITH WAS PROBABLY RESPONSIBLE FOR IT BEING [u]AS GOOD AS IT WAS. [/u] IOW, If Smith hadn't been given control when he was, the game would have almost certainly have been worse. [ quote]lso since he came out of his cave and announced this is what a bungie lead version of Destiny, the game has come out with bad news after bad news.[/quote] Because all the rumors coming out of Bungie point to almost all of Bungie's resources havingn shifted over to the development of D3....as opposed to maintaining D2. Those same rumors pointing to the members of the Live Team from D1....having been promoted to being the DEVELOPMENT team for D3. Which means we are probably dealing with a skeleton crew of very inexperienced people overseeing Destiny 2 post-Forsaken......and possibly still having people who supported the vision that people like Weisznewski had for the game. [quote]I have no reason to absolve him of the release and bad decisions after until Christopher Barret took over. Barrett who has disappeared seems to only show up once the game has bottomed out and he comes to fix things.[/quote] Then I respectfully submit that you don't really understand what's going on. In corporater terms, Luke Smith is a King, whereas Chris Barrett is a Kingmaker. ....and your reaction is why Kings often find themselves getting assassinated....whereas Kingmakers never do. It is well known that Barrett fought BITTERLY behind the scenes to try to convince the D2 dev team that what they were doing with the game was a mistake (Weisznewski latter admitted that it was). All indications from Smiths PRIOR work points to him siding with Barrett..and not Weisznewski.. Smiths behavior both before and after D2s release, also points to him having sided with Barrett. But Smith was a middle manager who took orders from executives above him...and those execs (probably seeing potential e-sports dollars) almost certainly ordered him to go forward wtih what Weisznewski wanted. But when this then blew up in their faces....and Smith and Barrett were able to turn to those same executives and were able to----politely---say "See, we told you this would happen." Those same execs hand the franchise to the people who are more in touch with the direction it should go. 1. They give control of the entire franchise to Smith. 2. They rumored to have given control of the development of D3 over to Chris Barrett. 3. While all the people who were vocal supporters of the ill-fated changes that vanilla D2 imposed on the game, are all very quietly leaving Bungie. Weisznewski. Hamrick, etc.... In the business world----especially in an industry where the margins for error are so slim----people do not reward failure. So you do not promote someone who is responsible for the expensive flop that Destiny 2 was. So odds are almost 100% that both Smith and Barrett objected to vanilla Destiny 2, but were ignored. While those whose ideas where listned to for D2....found themselves on the outside staring in on D3....so they saw the writing on the wall and left.

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  • NOW THAT'S the well informed Kelly I like to see!

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  • Barrett has been fortunate in that he's only been in the public eye during the franchise's successes.....and gets to fade out of public view when there is trouble. So he gets to look like the conquering hero. The White Knight who saves the day. (I like the guy and his work, but I also understand the priviliege of the position he's been allowed to occupy). OTOH. Smith has been forced to be a very public face of the franchise. Despite arguably not having a personality well-suited to be in that role. Although he has been associated with many successes, he was also forced to be associated with one of its biggest failures. Despite there being lots of signs that he was NOT really on-board with the decisions that led to that failure. So he could be very easily taking heat (from the public) for decisions that got forced on him by his bosses. Which is a DOUBLY f-ed up position to be in. Not only having to had your better ideas ignored....but being blamed for the results other people's bad ideas that your objections to got over-ruled.

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  • Since you really seem to be well informed, as much as I like reading your well-structured posts, I don't want to overstay my welcome and abuse your helpfulness. Unless it is some sort of "inside" info, is there anything beside TWAB and alike sources I should read on the subject?

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  • Kotaku had a good article on the development of Destiny and Destiny 2 by Jason Schrier (?spelling). The rest is just having watched and listend to a lot of interviews of Bungie devs, and piecing together D3 related rumors. If you want a good sense of why Destiny wound up being the way it was....two interviews that Jon Weisznewski gave to Crucible Radio (YouTube) are very revealing. The First one was in December 2015 (after listening to I was outraged and was trying to warn people that a trainwreck was coming----it did in the form of vanilla D2). Then he gave a second one Thanksgiving (US) week in 2017. Just as it was starting to become clear that Destiny 2 was flopping. He was still in denial at that point about how much the public REALLY didn't like the game. So it was kind of sad...but also very revealing. He gave third one to Destiny Community Podcast right around the time Warmind came out. By that time Bungie was well underway to rolling back most of the changes he'd made.....and the change in him by that point was satisfying to see. In the two previous interviews, you'd seen someone who was a nice guy....but was professionally arrogant beyond his actually talent level. He clearly didn't either understand the kind of game he was working on....or he didnt' respect how those games operated and why people played them. He was a man blind to the fact that he was out of touch...in love with his own ideas....and clearly had ambitions about creating the next big e-sport. Buy the third interview, you saw and heard a man who had been HUMBLED....in a good way. Someone with a much more accurate knowledge of what he was and wasnt good at. Someone who was self-aware with respect to how and why Destiny 2 had gone wrong ("I believed that I knew what was best for the game, and what people would like. Today I'm far less certain.") You saw a guy who was much more likely to be wlling to truly LISTEN to community feedback (rather than cherry pick it for what he wanted to hear), and work in a collaborative fashion with that community. ...and his work from that point to the time he left Bungie reflects it. I think this hard lesson has made him BETTER at his job, and I think whatever game he goes to work on will be the better for his having gone through this, AND learned from it. (He gets my respect for having done that. He swallowed his pride and accepted the lesson. Where many people whould have simply defended their ego, defended their work, and gone looking for someone or something else to blame. He didn't. He accepte responsibility for the failure....as all GOOD leaders do. )

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  • Kelly, you just awesome.:) I believe it's Jason Schreier. At least this name is typed on his "Blood, sweat, and pixels" book I have. :) Not that I always agree with his approach (I've read some of his later works, such as one on Anthem and alike) - I start to see a pattern in his investigations (I don't mean they are incorrect). It is kind of... "identical"? This could mean problems are universal in gamedev, but also it means he always talk to a people representing one and one level only - rank and file workers, not even intermediate level. NDA or not, I'd like to know more points of view from other positions, because otherwise we'll get from "Sea battle" to at least "River battle" or even "Pond battle". And it's not helping to understand entire picture. As for the rest, I'll go watch/listen things you listed first, as of now I have no knowledge on the subject, thus unable to continue meaningful discussion.:) Regarding Weisznewski's change, I agree with your conclusion. Simply don't have anything to add. Only that those that remain better not copycat his earlier behaviour. Yet it remains to be seen. Take care, and thanks again.:)

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  • tl/dr. Looking at that wall of text game me a headache.

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  • Edited by kellygreen2: 5/21/2019 4:27:24 PM
    TLDR: [i][b]No one rewards failure[/b]. [/i] The people who were largely responsible for vanilla D2 are leaving Bungie (most likely because they weren't given a seat at the table in the development of D3.) Every rumor coming out points to those people who FOUGHT the changes that vanilla D2 made, were given the reins of control of D3. So the fact Smith was given control of the ENTIRE franchise, points to him having NOT been a supporter of the direction Destiny 2 went....and he was likely the reason why the game had what few RPG elements it managed to hold onto.

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  • What would you do Community: Destiny 2 is to easy Bungie: Ok we need to nerf some things Community: Bungie is trash they dont listen

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  • Community =/= ME And honestly, how would we even know if it's the majority of the community who feel / felt that way. You might be right, but we have no way to know for sure.

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  • This is meant as a compliment, but you have had the best character arc out of anything and anyone related to Destiny.

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  • Thank you. I think.....

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  • I agree, but I think it's been more consistent with D2 because of how things have been handled. Communication goes a long way, it's such a small thing yet this company makes it so hard for themselves. I'm still waiting for Bungie going on 5 years to figure that out, and I'm sure it's going to be much longer before that happens.

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