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12/14/2015 5:12:01 PM
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Kackis is a muck-raker and carnival barker. He's just using this to drive eyeballs to his channel and money into his pocket. This is what happens when you try to correct weapon balance problems that are rooted in MAP DESIGN flaws, by changing weapon balance. This is what happens whnyou try to control what weapons people choose to fight with, rather than assigning consequences to the choices that they DO make. People are ALWAYS going to complain that the weapons that give them trouble are "over powered", and will ALWAYS choose the weapon with the shortest TTK that they can comfortably use for themselves. Which is why you get these lopsided metas when you keep trying fix the symptoms of the problem, and not the root fo the problem.
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  • Edited by Killlerschaf: 12/15/2015 5:27:05 AM
    The root of the current meta is not map design. To be honest, I doubt that it ever was map design, as we currently see snipers dominating maps which would have been clearly described as being shotgun dominated before. The current problem actually goes far deeper, as Bungie seems to willingly force certain playstyles onto their PvP population. This game has been out for over a year, rhe the player base has been huge and the numbers of kills happening in the Crucible are actually so damn high, that the statistical Analysis should be very conclusive, if the correct questions are asked. This is important to note, because it means that Bungie could have easily balanced the weapons properly by now, having certain weapons, which excel on certain map designs. They could have forced more primary play, through massively reducing ammo drops for example, if secondaries would be a balancing issue not solvable through conventional means. There is an old saying: When everything is overpowered, nothing is overpowered. This is another balancing philosophy, which consists of simply making everything strong (because now there's no reason to complain. Suros is OP? Take a Vex and be just as OP. Tlaloc is OP? Take a Hawkmoon. Etc etc) Bungie simply refuses to give us a meaningful choice of strong weapons, something completely independent of map design. But for whatever reason, Bungie refuses to go down that route. They also completely refuse to balance regularly, which would make much more sense, in a game that has so many PvP players. If they would balance more often, an ideal balance could be achieved far easier.

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  • 1. The game's orginal weapon balance problems were due to map design and ARs firing too far and too sthraght. Bungie ignored the first problem and ridiculously over-corrected on the second one. 2. The game has had an ongoing philosophical problem in that Bungie (and many of the game's players) are trying to get this game to play like Halo's multiplayer...and it NEVER will do that. Not as long as people can CHOOSE what weapons they want to play. 3. So Bungie keeps breaking the weapon balance by a. Trying to control what weapons people choose to fight with....instead of having in-game consequences for those choices. b. They keep trying to honor the player's bases irrational wish for shotguns to be melee weapons. So you wind up with massive gaps in weapon coverage. This allows playstyles and dominant weapons to take hold that the community hates. TLDR... When you find yourself in a hole. Stop DIGGING. The way out of the hole isn't through the BOTTOM. You put down the shovel and you climb OUT of it. Bungie is never going to be able to get to a healthy, balanced weapon system the way they are trying to go about it. The only way to get there is to accept that there will be dominant weapons classes at specific ranges...and dominant weapons WITHin weapon classes. But that you present maps that are designed to support a WIDE variety of playstyles, and attach consequences and compromises to specifc weapons and playstyles. THAT is how other game desginers achieve balance. They set up the sandbox...and then let the community play the way it wants..and accept hte consequences for doing so. In Titanfall, the vast majority of people play with assualt rifles. Not because they are "overpowered". But becuase they are the most VERSATILE weapon in the toolbox. A jack of all trades, but master of none. You'll be competitive in any fight at any range...but you won't dominate any particular one. REspawn leaves this alone. Bungue would be trying to "fix" it.

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  • Edited by Killlerschaf: 12/15/2015 5:21:15 PM
    1) Nope. On those same maps HCs dominated after vanilla, and now have sniper rifles dominate, even though it were shotguns 1 month ago. The issue is definitely not map design, when a sniper dominates on maps basically made for shotguns. 2) I probably shouldn't blame you for thinking that, because your PvP stats aren't that great, but this is definitely not the case. Making this game more like Halo is neither the goal, nor the issue. I have been one of the best Halo players in my country and the same applies to Destiny. If this would become more like Halo, I would be even better. It's not about Halo, it's about Bungie trying out massive meta shifts every update. And if they aren't too incompetent to understand what their changes are doing, it has to be intentional. 3)b) Overall agreed I guess. TLDR... Yeah more or less agreed. Until they understand that certain range thresholds are made for certain weapons, balance won't be achievable. Shotguns and snipers need a massive rebalance now.

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  • Eye roll. If you're going to be that narrow and rigid in how you look at things, then this conversation is pointless. Bottomline is this. Titanfall had a VERY similar (though smaller) weapon system to Destiny. It had Pilots who were faster and more manuverable than Guardians...and shotguns that had twice the range of Felwinters. Titanfall was hailed as having one of the most balanced weapon systems in competitfive FPS games....and never needed more than a superficial bit of tweaking. Yet Titanfall never had to deal with the all weapon balance and weapon spamming issues that have plagued the Crucible, and that Bungie can't seem to solve. Having played both games extensively, the answer is pretty obvious to me. Why Titanfall 's weapons worked...and Destiny is still trying to get it right, and seems to be making it worse at every turn.

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  • Edited by Killlerschaf: 12/15/2015 5:52:55 PM
    I haven't played Titanfall and didn't plan on doing it, so the comparison doesn't do much for me. The overall issue isn't map design, in case of that still being your point. I play competitive shooters since Unreal Tournament and have seen quite a few different design philosophies. Anyhow, you don't need to know more than Snipers dominating on shotgun maps, to understand that the fundamental issue is definitely not map design, but the weapon balance between the classes. Currently snipers are also the biggest issue balance wise, so this actually underscores my point. I also disagree with the notion of Destiny trying to get the balance. They are trying to create a completely new meta with every update, instead of balancing the game. Given the big data, from kill distances over average TTK, heat maps etc, it should be no issue to balance the game. The only logical conclusion is thus that Bungie wants these radical meta shifts.

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  • Bungie is playing the unwinnable game of trying to force an even pattern of usage, rather than balancing CONDITIONS....and then letting the community play whatever it wants to play. Treating everyone the same is not treating everyone fairly ...and equal usage is not the same as balance.

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  • Edited by Killlerschaf: 12/15/2015 6:28:45 PM
    How do you balance conditions? Is that your jargon for map design? Or do you mean other conditions? And no, Bungie doesn't try to even out the usage of weapons. They try push weapons onto their users. Or did you mean that and I misunderstood you? Bungie actively refuses to truly balance the game. I'm still working on the why, but it's obvious what they do.

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  • 1. You balance conditions by designing maps that don't favor one play-style over another...or if you can't do that, you develop maps so that the full gamut of playstyles get represented. Bungie has failed...and failed badly on this one. 2. You balance conditions by offerign a variety of play MODES so that one play style isn't favored over another. Again, Bungie has failed on this 3. Bungie nerfs weapons that their internal metrics show are being overutilizedin PVP, and buff weapons that those same metrics show as being underutilized. They fail in their effort to balance the game because their basic approach to do it is flawed, and they make adjustments with a chainsaw instead of a scalpel.

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  • Edited by Killlerschaf: 12/15/2015 7:09:28 PM
    3) The point is simply not true. Usage must be a very low priority in terms of variables, if not we would have seen numerous buffs to fusion rifles. 2) More modes are always appreciated. 1) Map Design is NOT the issue. Stop with that delusion. Snipers dominating shotgun maps is a clear indication of that. Pulse Rifles taking over HCs in the mid range another one. Or ARs being destroyed in close ranges by PRs. The current meta easily shows that you can make everything into a sniping lane, if thr view is clear enough. Doesn't matter if it's a corridor on the Drifter or an open sightline on Skyshock. The issue lies solely in Bungie's weird way of balancing.

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