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작성자: michael
8/14/2021 4:26:05 PM
207
Why SBMM is neccesary in destiny - a top 1% player's perspective/rant
I've made this post before but after a few months I wanted to make it again just to reaffirm my stance and to get people talking about this topic.
A lot of you on the forum know me as ben, I play on pc and I pretty much only play PvP. I spend pretty much all of my time in rumble - I am #1 in rumble on pc according to guardian.gg and #5 across all platforms according to destinytracker. If you want to look at my stats in detail you can look up "6 god ben" on the website of your choice, it will be my steam name for a while and I should be the only one with it.
After a lot of time in PvP, it has become abundantly clear to me that purely connection-based matchmaking is not good for destiny's PvP. From what I can tell from playing a lot and from spending a lot of time on here reading what people have to say, the current algorithm that is present in most crucible playlists does a very good job at pushing casual/average players away from the game.
As an example, please look at the PGCR from a rumble game I played today: https://guardian.gg/2/pgcr/8966356596 . This is one of the most flagrantly unfair lobbies I have been in in a very long time. I joined this game down 9 and won the game in 3 minutes - these players were very clearly brand new to the game and were not even trying to shoot back. As you can see from their elo ratings, this lobby had 2 bronze, 3 iron, 1 gold, and 1 DIAMOND player. Im willing to bet everyone in this lobby had less than 300 hours on the game compared to me with 2000 on steam alone.
When lobbies like this happen, people stop wanting to play. They are left with the notion that PvP is a place for tryhards, and that casuals or new players like them do not belong. I don't care how good you are at the game, how much of an ego you have, how much you enjoy shitstomping people who don't shoot back at you - this is unhealthy for the game, period. You can say the game caters to casuals and I agree that it does; the sandbox has a lot of very forgiving and easy to use weapons and abilities that definitely cater to the low skilled player. But this doesn't matter because they still don't stand a chance against someone who has been playing way longer than them and who is way better.
And the thing is, I don't even think this matchmaking is beneficial to the skilled player's experience either. I understand the appeal of pubstomping, don't get me wrong, but is it REALLY worth jeopardizing the casual experience so that you can absolutely stomp every lobby without even trying? Does it not get old? Because I think it gets old. Rumble is a time passer for me, but it is not engaging or intense or demanding whatsoever. The rumble games that I enjoy the most are lobbies with 1 or 2 other good players, on a small map where you can't run away from eachother and can only win by proving that you are better in 1v1 scenarios and better at controlling the map. I win just about every single game, this week my record is 119 wins and 3 losses, and Id say maybe one out of every ten games is one where I actually have to try? Very, very rarely do I really have to fully go for it and go full focus in order to win a game. Winning games is rarely satisfying, it is just normal and the satisfying games are ones against good players. There is nothing satisfying to me about demolishing new players, and I wish people of my skill level felt the same because your pubstomping is not worth the death of the game because everyone gets pushed away.
It is especially problematic when you consider the fact that, for the casual player, there is no where they can go in the crucible director to escape this unfair experience. Every single playlist is extremely CBMM heavy.
You can make the argument that we have seen what destiny was like with skill based matchmaking being so intense that lobbies were way too laggy and I am not going to act like I forgot. Putting skill based back into the algorithm and making the connection based matchmaking a little less intense is definitely risky with destiny's playerbase. But I think it is worth the risk, just to try. Even if its just in a couple playlists.
I don't have any statistics handy regarding the average crucible player count across every season and frankly I do not care. If it is true that the crucible player count is the highest it has ever been, regardless of how bad matchmaking is for the casual player, then so be it. I find it hard to believe but I know the numbers don't lie. I just want to make the point that, even from my perspective, it is clear that the matchmaking is unfair. Thanks for reading my rant.
TL:DR Crucible matchmaking is too punishing to the casual player, it leaves them with no where to go if they want to improve without playing against people leagues ahead of them in skill and experience.
Edit: In regards to the "you improve from losing against better players" argument, it is a good point but it only applies to a certain extent and is somewhat flawed in destiny specifically. My detailed reply to this argument is here - https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/259430040/0/0/1
I also deleted a bunch of text because I typed this on my computer and didnt realize how brutal the walls of text looked on mobile
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I think it's important to get the balance of SBMM and CBMM modes right. Remember back in Forsaken when pretty much the only CBMM mode was Classic Mix? As a PvP player who prefers CBMM and likes to play solo, I had to make sure to play during "off-peak" times to avoid the 6 man teams farming stats. But like you've said, when the scales are too far the other way, it hurts newer players etc. Having played through so many different iterations of match-making at this point, I don't think matchmaking will ever be "fixed" because PvP simply doesn't have the infrastructure for it and I can't see that changing for the rest of the franchise. I remember quite a few people were against the idea of Freelance IB initially. I personally think it was a great addition which still suffers from the current pain points of IB in general but at least you don't have to play against teams. Regardless of the matchmaking, I'd love the addition of a permanent freelance 6v6 mode.
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3 답변Sbmm should be in a ranked system be it 3vs3 or 6vs6. And I mean actually ranked like comp was back in the day where rank is indicative of skill. There should also be incentives for climbing ranks. This would make it fair and I'd support it but I'm afraid it still wouldn't work. As a top 1% players on pc at the moment, you'd be spending more time on que than in game and this is not an exaggeration by any means.
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5 답변Out of all the games I have played I think Apex has the best ranked The structure is what makes it work best People top off at whatever rank they are skilled for and if they choose to attempt grind for a higher rank they have to grind and get better Destiny just lacks a reason to do more than goof off in crucible with friends and I don’t really see that changing any time soon
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I’m not great in pvp but I also play other games like siege back in the day having to swear constantly just to play the game isn’t fun. There’s no winning with matchmaking. You either have new players get screwed or veterans get bored and quit.
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What about a ranking system for players and a ranking system for weapons. From D for dunce to S for sweat! ( D, C, B, A, S ) For our player rank it could be based of kda and combat efficiency and even damage output or even medals. For weapons it would be the same ratings, based off the current sandbox meta. Range, stability and aim assistance values would all be factors alongside archetype strengths and all things that add up to any given weapons lethality. Ok, so there could be a system or playlist that measures your TOTAL COMBAT POTENTIAL/ THEORETICAL POTENTIAL based on your individual player rank AND your LOADOUT. And this system or particular playlist could limit your total theoretical output to a median to simulate a handicap like system to create a more level playing field. For example; S class player can only use up to B class weapons. And D class players can use anything including S class weapons. This could be taken further by doing it for each weapon slot ( excluding heavy because it's kinda one and done ). I guess you could view it as a points system in a way. You're allowed 100pts to go in with and if your skill level is worth more you have less to spend on weapons. This may sound horrible and limiting and in a way it is, but it would truly create a fairer playing field in a PURELY CBMM playlist. There could be incentives for using lower class loadouts too. Just a crazy idea, any thoughts?
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2 답변Thx for lending your voice. Traditionally this sort of post has always been devolving into a dick measuring contest. I’m not too sure on how much Bungie actually cares anymore tbh. They seemed to have ignored PVP in favour of getting seasonal content done. A leaning to a more sbmm would be much appreciated, the current lobby balance still moves one or two high skilled players to every team and fills out the rest. That results in just being farmed by those high skilled players. Win or lose, it still is a bad experience. Destiny at its best is still a mission based PVE game with a story IMO, PvP can be a nice break up, but not in its current form, it’s just not worth the time for me.
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Another weekend , another lobby full of die hard flawless sweats in QP? Easy mode no challenge so why . Relentless posts about how broken pvp is , but still the same people day in day out playing 🤷🏼♂️ This game needs competition badly !
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2 답변Are people so pathetically soft now they need padding in a video game? I’m guessing most people on here either did not play pre modern cod or are just mad they have gotten too old to slay like back in the Halo 2 days. Get a grip lmao it’s a video game
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1 답변I happen to be one of the casual crucible players but I definitely could see myself playing much more if I didn't feel like I was getting destroyed at every turn. I don't know what the answer is but I do remember hearing a while back about how bungee implements the 50/50 rule. The current algorithm forces high skilled players to carry two or three low skilled players on the team so essentially you have a high skilled player on each team and that's pretty much it everybody else is just cannon fodder. I have been in lobbies where the teams felt balanced and those games were actually fun and interesting but that happens very rarely it seems. Have came to the point that I really only enjoy crucible in a 3v3 setting for the most part. To me it just seems more calm and not so hectic.
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7 답변If you want SBMM you are asking for easier lobbies. You are here literally asking for easier lobbies. You say top players want CBMM because they want easier lobbies. Pretty ridiculous but OK. Who should Bungie cater to? People who fart around in crucible a few hours a month, or people who only play this game for the crucible?
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This was a great post that fully explored the reasoning why sbmm is needed in the game. People will argue that players get better by playing higher skill players but I would fully disagree with that statement, a player will get better by playing people on their skill level and slowly climb into higher skill matches when they themselves become more skilled at their current level. You don't throw a person just starting the game into a match with people way outside there relm of skill and just tell then get better, you place them in matches of similar skill.
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I would agree with SBMM everywhere except for Trials. The only reason being is that if it is skill based, EVERYONE not just the top 1% will have a 1 in 2 (mathematically) chance of winning each game, 7 times in a row, which equates to around a .08% chance of going flawless over 7 games. That is not fun for anyone, playing for hours on end having a really small chance at going flawless do to everyone you play being the same skill. SBMM in trials would resort to some higher level players doing carries and double carries so that they can play easier lobbies and get flawless faster. Streamers would all be facing hackers and most players would end up resorting to whichever frowned upon method is out for winning games (the equivalent of 3 peeking right now), every game would just not be fun. (Still in trials)
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The game does not have the network infrastructure or the population to support SBMM. The hit detection is already unreliable and inconsistent, and i’m playing people from other continents, or people from the opposite side of Europe who are lagging their asses off far too often, and when you start excluding players that i can match based on skill it will be a non-stop lag fest. Crossplay might help a little bit but i doubt that it will make a huge difference even if they get rid of the generational split (which should not be a thing since in the first place because it only makes the matchmaking issues worse) because i’m already on the more popular console, historically Xbox has sold 1/3 of what PS did in Europe.
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3 답변
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Honestly this was a well thought out post, normally i just disagree and most people give BS reasons why they think it's good but you explored some good points here. Sadly I still respectfully disagree with you. SBMM will always be bad for gaming. Light (less strict) SBMM is ok, I've been playing shooters since DOOM in the 90s and seen how watered down gaming has gotten for new players. It's quite sad tbh how manipulative it is not so much in destiny but in other titles. I've seen it in pretty much every COD game since Black Ops 2, Apex Legends, Warzone, Destiny 1 + 2, and pretty much every shooter besides Battlefield scheduled to come out. SBMM isn't designed to match you with players at your skill, it's designed to keep you playing the game. Activision likes to call it Engagement Optimized Matchmaking in their games. Destiny isn't really competitive enough in my eyes for me to take the PvP seriously anymore. I just got the trials and Crucible seals, few god rolls and called it quits until new stuff drops. But as a whole in gaming, I still firmly believe it's incredibly manipulative in gaming to keep retention numbers up. SBMM creates a skill ceiling where because every game is played like Twitch Rivals, you don't actually know how good or how bad you are at the game because you're always in the top 1% of the playerbase. You make good arguments that i can even agree with to SOME extent, but overall, strict SBMM has 0 place in any video game.
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What we really need is what 99% of every other FPS has, which is working Regional Dedicated Host Servers (RDHS) instead of their current Frankenstein Halo Era 2008ish Peer to Peer network mess. Once we have a solid network infrastructure, then CBMM goes away and all list can be either Casual or SBMM. Until we have RDHS, there is no point talking about balance or skill or anything else, because "he (or she) that lags most is the Crucible King (Queen)".
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11 답변Humans learn from their mistakes. It’s the basic building block of growing. It isn’t debatable or an opinion it’s a fact of life that you learn more from a loss than a win. Players attitudes towards losing can heavily change their view on a loss sure but it’s still destiny and it isn’t a game built to be taken seriously with sbmm. It’s abilities aren’t balanced, they have directly targeted the skill gap with some nerfs over the years and we have guns that hand kills out to lower skilled players. Sbmm just makes every match more serious and I don’t think that benefits people long term. Comps for serious and qp for casual. Lobby balancing could use some tuning sure but sbmm outside of a ranked mode isn’t fun which is the main goal of crucible.
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1 답변작성자: JackTheRipperRoo 8/14/2021 8:51:38 PMSBMM need come back But problems is matchmaking take longer and someone lag Hope Bungie solve the problem Sweaty try hard would disagree
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Totally agree with you. I’d like to think that I am decent at the game, my stats are there for all to see. Take Halo for example, I’ve been playing it since 2001, so for about 20 years. My BTB KD is a facade. It is above 2.0 (that’s high for halo) but it is filled with illusions thanks to CBMM. When I go into Halo 3’s MLG team slayer game type, I think it might be a 1.3 kd at best. I’m playing streamers and people usually many levels above mine. I’m significantly more proud of my lower KD in that game type than the nothing burger that is my CBMM kd. Some of the best matches I’ve played in d2 have been due to SBMM, and I miss it.
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7 답변You will notice that the content creators now do their videos on rumble often as well. They are the real reason this happened in the first place. They wanted to be able to take any weapon into the crucible and slay out for clips. they pushed the community to chant along with them until they got the PVP in the game ruined. Now they really don't know what to do as once everyone quits and leaves it doesn't really matter how easy it is to get clips.
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2 답변
