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작성자: michael
8/14/2021 4:26:05 PM
207
Why SBMM is neccesary in destiny - a top 1% player's perspective/rant
I've made this post before but after a few months I wanted to make it again just to reaffirm my stance and to get people talking about this topic.
A lot of you on the forum know me as ben, I play on pc and I pretty much only play PvP. I spend pretty much all of my time in rumble - I am #1 in rumble on pc according to guardian.gg and #5 across all platforms according to destinytracker. If you want to look at my stats in detail you can look up "6 god ben" on the website of your choice, it will be my steam name for a while and I should be the only one with it.
After a lot of time in PvP, it has become abundantly clear to me that purely connection-based matchmaking is not good for destiny's PvP. From what I can tell from playing a lot and from spending a lot of time on here reading what people have to say, the current algorithm that is present in most crucible playlists does a very good job at pushing casual/average players away from the game.
As an example, please look at the PGCR from a rumble game I played today: https://guardian.gg/2/pgcr/8966356596 . This is one of the most flagrantly unfair lobbies I have been in in a very long time. I joined this game down 9 and won the game in 3 minutes - these players were very clearly brand new to the game and were not even trying to shoot back. As you can see from their elo ratings, this lobby had 2 bronze, 3 iron, 1 gold, and 1 DIAMOND player. Im willing to bet everyone in this lobby had less than 300 hours on the game compared to me with 2000 on steam alone.
When lobbies like this happen, people stop wanting to play. They are left with the notion that PvP is a place for tryhards, and that casuals or new players like them do not belong. I don't care how good you are at the game, how much of an ego you have, how much you enjoy shitstomping people who don't shoot back at you - this is unhealthy for the game, period. You can say the game caters to casuals and I agree that it does; the sandbox has a lot of very forgiving and easy to use weapons and abilities that definitely cater to the low skilled player. But this doesn't matter because they still don't stand a chance against someone who has been playing way longer than them and who is way better.
And the thing is, I don't even think this matchmaking is beneficial to the skilled player's experience either. I understand the appeal of pubstomping, don't get me wrong, but is it REALLY worth jeopardizing the casual experience so that you can absolutely stomp every lobby without even trying? Does it not get old? Because I think it gets old. Rumble is a time passer for me, but it is not engaging or intense or demanding whatsoever. The rumble games that I enjoy the most are lobbies with 1 or 2 other good players, on a small map where you can't run away from eachother and can only win by proving that you are better in 1v1 scenarios and better at controlling the map. I win just about every single game, this week my record is 119 wins and 3 losses, and Id say maybe one out of every ten games is one where I actually have to try? Very, very rarely do I really have to fully go for it and go full focus in order to win a game. Winning games is rarely satisfying, it is just normal and the satisfying games are ones against good players. There is nothing satisfying to me about demolishing new players, and I wish people of my skill level felt the same because your pubstomping is not worth the death of the game because everyone gets pushed away.
It is especially problematic when you consider the fact that, for the casual player, there is no where they can go in the crucible director to escape this unfair experience. Every single playlist is extremely CBMM heavy.
You can make the argument that we have seen what destiny was like with skill based matchmaking being so intense that lobbies were way too laggy and I am not going to act like I forgot. Putting skill based back into the algorithm and making the connection based matchmaking a little less intense is definitely risky with destiny's playerbase. But I think it is worth the risk, just to try. Even if its just in a couple playlists.
I don't have any statistics handy regarding the average crucible player count across every season and frankly I do not care. If it is true that the crucible player count is the highest it has ever been, regardless of how bad matchmaking is for the casual player, then so be it. I find it hard to believe but I know the numbers don't lie. I just want to make the point that, even from my perspective, it is clear that the matchmaking is unfair. Thanks for reading my rant.
TL:DR Crucible matchmaking is too punishing to the casual player, it leaves them with no where to go if they want to improve without playing against people leagues ahead of them in skill and experience.
Edit: In regards to the "you improve from losing against better players" argument, it is a good point but it only applies to a certain extent and is somewhat flawed in destiny specifically. My detailed reply to this argument is here - https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/259430040/0/0/1
I also deleted a bunch of text because I typed this on my computer and didnt realize how brutal the walls of text looked on mobile
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I love that you took the time to write this. Sadly it doesn’t matter. They obviously don’t care. It has been broken for soo long. They made an attempt to change it months ago during ib. It broke the game completely, was removed the next day, and it has been radio silence since.
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1 답변I mean, I dont think you even touched on the merry hell caused by CBMM + Lobby Balancing. SBMM needs to come back but with less stringent skill brackets IMO. Protect people from being [i]hopelessly[/i] outclassed, but dont shield me from someone who is a few rungs up the ladder from me - thats an opponent I can learn from.
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[quote]You can say the game caters to casuals and I agree that it does; the sandbox has a lot of very forgiving and easy to use weapons and abilities that definitely cater to the low skilled player. But this doesn't matter because they don't stand a chance...[/quote] A lot of the sandbox caters to casuals for sure, and to summarize your main point a little differently I'll say that CBMM itself is a direct threat to casuals for the reason you gave. [quote]If it is true that the crucible player count is the highest it has ever been, regardless of how bad matchmaking is for the casual player, then so be it. I find it hard to believe but I know the numbers don't lie.[/quote] I empathize with your skepticism on those metrics of pvp players. But the reason I do is because I think CBMM is a long-term threat to pvp longevity, so its damage may not be done until later in the future. So I agree with the numbers because I am confident they will fall as time goes on. [quote]Edit: In regards to the "you improve from losing against better players" argument, it is a good point but it only applies to a certain extent and is somewhat flawed in destiny specifically.[/quote] This is absolutely true. Although I don't understand properly why Destiny specifically would threaten improvement; I'll read your cited post to see.
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3 답변I think SBMM should be afforded to new light players, due to the fact that all of them lack mods to compete. Trying to win 1v1s without mods is funny.
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While the argument can be made for both sides, this “new” style of team balancing needs to be talked about. I think bungie is looking to go back to sbmm, because their team balancing does not work in cbmm. Almost every match is a very one sided mercy rule. (At least from my personal experience)
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2 답변작성자: Sohsuh 8/15/2021 4:34:41 PMIt’s funny that people actually think SBMM is the problem with Crucible right now. It’s mind blowing. Let’s say 95 people are playing Crucible, that number probably isn’t too far off from the truth, and all 95 people are great players. They love the pvp and play it even though it hasn’t seen new maps or updates in years. When a few normal/casual players enter the crucible, they are matching some of those 95 people. So you go in and get stomped by them because they live in there. How in the world is that the fault of the matchmaking system? The crucible is dead. You can’t expect to have games against regular old casual players if the vast majority of players playing crucible are sweatlords. What would SBMM do? Pull people out of thin air and drop them in your game? You’ll be waiting 10 minutes just to match the same people you are now, because they’re the only ones playing crucible! This is not the fault of the matchmaking, this is Bungies fault. They haven’t added maps, or balanced special ammo, or supers properly. There’s no loot incentive or anything. They let stasis ruin pvp for like 8 months straight which drove tons of regular players far away from crucible. Bungie needs to put a ton of work into the crucible to get a healthy player base. It’s the same thing with Trials. You aren’t going to have fun in Trials because no normal, casual player is playing it.
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97 답변Why we dont dont need it. 1. Lower skilled players vs higher skilled players introduces them to new playstyles, techniques, and habits. In sbmm players get stuck in pools and never get a chance to learn from better players or challenge themselves so that they develop a counter. 2. Sbmm makes crucible awful for higher skilled players. If your above average, you'll find yourself running only meta weapons and playstyles because that's what your opponent are doing. Sbmm means higher skilled players never get a casual match, and can never experiment with new builds and gear.
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2 답변I was once a top 1% player in a few playlists and advocated for strict sbmm ... Bungie went hard opposite and now I'm the guy boasting about being #1 in suicides for his state. That's what PvP has become for me ... either I get completely destroyed because my teammates are utter trash, or I completely destroy because my teammates are utter gods. It's so boring and so old, every game is a blowout, it's not fun. Crazy thing, my k/d is only like 1.6 and I win rate is 47% - I play solo and intentionally kill myself and it doesn't matter, it's so predictable. Bungie likes to pretend that they don't force the 50/50 rate for solo players but it's so obvious. I just hope Halo is good, so I can be rid of this game.
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4 답변I am on the opposite end... equally experienced (about 4400h in the game) but hopelessly unskilled because of a slow reaction time and poor fine motor skills. For years, I played Destiny's Crucible, regularly lost but was never endlessly, hopelessly, utterly outclassed whenever I played (aside from Trials, which I quickly learned to avoid). With the advent of universal CBMM, that changed. Now, I don't play Crucible. And if others stop as well, the game will suffer more than it already has. Not all of us are good. Not all of us CAN get good. If you deliberately cater to the bullies who get their feelings hurt because they can't endlessly stomp on weaker players, you're not creating a healthy or fun environment. You're creating a toxic one.
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2 답변Firstly, skills man! However one thing to mention here is you’re an extreme outlier in the data at the very top of the distribution curve. Not many players exist with your stats. So whilst in the games you go into most other players will be swearing ‘that damn Ben guy!’ They will play a bunch of other games where that doesn’t happen. Also to mention; playing better players is how you improve. Outside of ranked games in Halo we used to always get a mix of skills. Same in COD, same in BF. Same in many others PVP games. My main issue in Destiny PVP is lack of modes, lack of maps and P2P connection. Need to fix all of that to bump up the player count so within that distribution curve, there’s a shift back to more bell shape in the middle; right now I suspect it’s skewed to more die hard and new players.
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5 답변작성자: illz 8/15/2021 9:18:19 AMI dont know how you can be such a high rank and think that cbmm is in play. It isnt, a blind person could see this. But my opinion doesnt matter, Bungie even stated themselves that we dont currently have CBMM. It is lobby balanced matchmaking. We are not being matched on connection. The lobbies are made to be balanced by scales of skill. Each player has a hidden skill rating and the matchmaking distributes teams as evenly as it can. Because these attributed skill ratings are aimed to be disturbed evenly across both sides, connection does not come into play. August 2021 has the lowest pc playerbase peak and average of all time. This means that its harder to distribute more evenly. If we had true sbmm it would take forever to find matches. The p2p connections would be worse than ever. Instead of the one person who matches your skill on the opposing team being from the other side of the world, the entire team will be. Without dedicated servers and a robust anti cheat, sbmm cant exist in Destiny and its why it isnt rn. Bungie have struck quite a smart chord with lobby balancing though it should be pure cbmm as p2p is awful. Why? Because it means scales of skill can play together. I can play with more casual friends in qp which is supposed to be chill. Why should my friends suffer in quickplay just because you want sweaty games? If you want a sweat experience that feels 'close' then play comp as that has sbmm. Or play a fps that doesnt have a million aim assist and has dedicated servers. The only way to have close games in d2 for high tier players comes at the cost of 300 ping regardless of your own connection. You know that the highest % of players are in the same skill bracket right? This is why current MM works fine. A lot of bad players and even new players are not actually that bad. They simply dont spend time learning fundamentals and get frustrated easily. They run into players thinking its like a strike lol. In addition bungie are doing a bunch of things to accommodate newer players such as nerf sliding and shotguns. Sounds like you are burned out dude ngl, sbmm never has been the play in d2 and all the people who want it, dont actually know whats best for them or the game. Their stats are never any better in that given sbmm time. What the game needs a higher population, sbmm makes every game a sweat, makes connections worse for better players, makes queue times longer, makes it impossible to play with friends of varying skill and is essentially useless in d2 with p2p. Sbmm wont give a higher population. Pvp itself needs more modes, maps, anti cheat, incentives, reasons to reset valor etc. It needs things to chase to entice people in and then theyll learn the basics. People are blindly going in for pinnacles with no intent to get better then asking for that experience to be suited to their 3 games per week. This isnt good for the game in the long run. Bungie did say they are working on pvp though, so we'll see if my guesses come true, crossplay should help. Tldr: Its okay for some people to be better than others in a video game. Some games you win, some you lose. Its okay to develop and learn over time. Lobbies are 100% balanced more than ever this season. Cbmm is not in play. Sbmm does not have a place in a casual peer to peer gaming in 2021. Average steam playerbase is 44k this month. If you are lucky 3k of them are in pvp. You want sbmm with 3k players globally with p2p. Add in the fact that at least 25% of those are cheating. Nah. This is just my opinion on the game. I have 235,000ish pvp kills, i have a lot of time in pvp and i dont sweat hard, i just try to enjoy it as much as possible with new rolls and weapons. Ive seen strict sbmm and ive seen cbmm. What we have now is actually not bad at all for newer players/ players who wana become better, especially given the circumstances. Its a game mode that is going to have 1 new map in 3 years and has been all but abandoned... no incentives. Its gona be harsh environment for any new player as its all but empty besides highly dedicated players. It just aint a matchmaking issue BUT bungie said they on the case to make it better. Sorry for the long comment.
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1 답변
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20 답변explain why the vast majority of pvp players across multiple games hate sbmm. one comes to mind is COD/Warzone. SBMM only helps below average players, and punishes Average and Above players.
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Sbmm ruins the game for the players that play the game the most..top tier players got there by putting the time in not by quitting after getting stomped a few times. They already have access to guns that are free kills against average and below players (jotuun) for example. It also doesnt solve the problem because tanking stats to continue to pubstomp will become rampant
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10 답변
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2 답변I'm not reading this. Your title alone indicates you ate paint chips as a kid. The matchmaking is the worst it's ever been.
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TL;DR: 0-1099 Elo should be SBMM (Iron to Bronze 3) and 1100-1700 should be CBMM (Silver 1-Legionnaire) Honestly I have kinda said it for a while... From Iron to lower end Silver or Higher end Bronze should be SBMM. Like Silver 1 and up should just be connection based... the bad players should be able to play against each other to make it feel fair to them and they can even match them up with mid to upper silvers for practice too but I think above maybe Silver 4 at the highest should be connection based as to not take away from the experience of higher end players. Should need to get stomped once in a while but like for Example Iron Banner right, some people only win 20% of games because there is so many stacks.... Bronze Players won't even launch Comp because they just get finessed at 0 Glory. It's honestly ridiculous! In the end regardless SBMM hurts some players somewhere no matter how they play. Top 10,000 players don't always want to face each other and have to sweat and lower tier players hate getting stomped out. There is no winning so what I stated at the top is honestly my "fix" but if anything Iron Players need to ahve a starting PVP bracket to vs each other to get a hang of it all.
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5 답변For quick play modes. How about 2 pools. KD at or above 1.2, and KD below that. Then use CBMM for each pool. If you’re in a fire team with anyone above 1.2 you’re auto assigned the higher pool. Higher skilled players will still have a large pool. Lower skilled players will be able to enjoy the game again, and improve their skills. Potentially improving enough to move up to the higher bracket.
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I think it's important to get the balance of SBMM and CBMM modes right. Remember back in Forsaken when pretty much the only CBMM mode was Classic Mix? As a PvP player who prefers CBMM and likes to play solo, I had to make sure to play during "off-peak" times to avoid the 6 man teams farming stats. But like you've said, when the scales are too far the other way, it hurts newer players etc. Having played through so many different iterations of match-making at this point, I don't think matchmaking will ever be "fixed" because PvP simply doesn't have the infrastructure for it and I can't see that changing for the rest of the franchise. I remember quite a few people were against the idea of Freelance IB initially. I personally think it was a great addition which still suffers from the current pain points of IB in general but at least you don't have to play against teams. Regardless of the matchmaking, I'd love the addition of a permanent freelance 6v6 mode.
