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4/29/2020 4:23:27 PM
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Weapon Retirement - Limiting Player Choice
[quote]“In Destiny 2, with infusion, it’s like having every card you own in Magic available and playable in all formats forever. It passively creates power creep (an ongoing Destiny problem), which also means our teams need to spend more and more of their time re-testing and supporting old stuff instead of making new stuff, it reduces player desire for new items (which dismantles aspiration like the shard-the-blues post-Crucible match ritual), and it means we ultimately create a ton of gear that doesn’t have any value beyond ticking the box on the “I Got It” checklist.
“That isn’t value. It’s actually the opposite of value, because it’s work that we could be putting into making new stuff, or improving old stuff.”
-Luke Smith[/quote]
I didn't understand Luke's argument when I first heard this weeks ago. But after a couple of extra passes, I now I think I get what he's saying...and Bungie has no business retiring weapons.
First of all, there's a glaring contradiction. He's dismayed about the time his team spends "supporting old stuff instead of making new stuff", because he wants them "making new stuff, or improving old stuff.” How do you improve old stuff without supporting old stuff? Why does "supporting" a weapon that's already up and running, take more time than improving it? The notion that infusing weapons makes extra work for Bungie was already a hard sell, without this weird reasoning.
The driving force of the policy though is Luke's concern that new gear must be better(ie: more powerful) than what players already have, to be genuinely desirable. This is a legitimate design hurdle for a looter shooter. But it's one that requires a creative solution. Not a heavy handed restriction on player choice. Xbox Live doesn't limit me to 30 minutes of Destiny, because they want me to play more Gears of War.
This has been on my mind since I heard Aztecross say yesterday that Revoker isn't being nerfed, because it's going to be sunset this fall anyway. I thought "damn I haven't even earned that gun yet". Does it even matter that some weapons required insane amounts of time and effort to land? Try solo cueing your way to a Not Forgotten, then listen to Luke basically tell you, "use this "Zavala's Jock Strap" hand cannon instead". I'd prefer to make that choice myself please.
The thing is, I think Bungie had been doing pretty well on that front for years. The "I Got It" checklist Luke complains about in his post, has actually motivated a zillion hours of my Destiny play time. If a new exotic or series of cool looking weapons is introduced, there IS value in acquiring them, even if they ultimately don't make the cut in my loadout.
English
#destiny2
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Sunsetting weapons is one of the main reasons I have NOT bought the DLC or season pass - even when it was on sale for a reasonable price. I REFUSE to go through that again for a third time. It was crap in Destiny 1... it was crap at the beginning of Destiny 2. And then they brought almost all of it back and you had to grind for it all over again. NO WAY will I suffer it happening again.
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22 답변작성자: Haunter 4/30/2020 4:31:34 PMIts completely unnecessary Lukes post can be broken down into 2 issues, one of which is factually incorrect the other is an issue that the design team needs to work on and hilariously these issues contradict each other. Issue #1: Power creep. The system where gear becomes better and better as time goes on. This is totally and completely false. Let's look at a Y2 pulse rifle compared to a Y3. Blast furnace vs sacred providence. Both are great pulses, both see use, neither are stronger then the other, if power creep existed sacred p would be miles better then blast furnace. Can anyone look at the recent weapons we've got and say they're vastly better then Y2 or sometimes even Y1 options? No. Power creep does not exist in destiny. Issue #2 new weapons aren't being used because people prefer the old. Aside from being a complete contradiction from issue #1 power creep where the latest gear is the best so why would it not be used the ones at fault for new gear sucking is purely on the devs. The fact is when new weapons are part of a good archtype and have the desirable perk pools they get used. Let's look at this season - astral horizon, seraph shotty, summoner, dire promise and eye of sol are the highlights this season, all are good archtypes with the right perk pools. Let's look at last season - line in the sand, perfect paradox, travelers judgement, last hope, breachlight and steelfeather repeater - all good perk pools with good archtypes and all saw use last season and continue to do so. The destiny community like grinding for new stuff when it's worthwhile. However when everyone loves 150 rpm cannons and bungie decide not only to not bring back jewel of osiris, messenger or infinite therom (probably time gating for next season) despite bringing back all the other Y1D1 trials stuff or when they make a seraph hand cannon but for who knows what reason decide to make it a 180 what exactly do they expect? When new gear is part of weak archtypes or have bad perk pools including times where perks that would work well together both get placed under the same node you can hardly expect players to use it. Literally if anyone in the community would be designing these weapons they'd know the desirable perk combos and ensure they're possible, when that happens new stuff absolutely gets used, this is a dev ignorance or incompetence issue, not a player one. The fact is there are only 2 real reasons this is being done - and neither are to help players. Reason 1: Bungie devs want the latest gear to be used but not have to put effort into making them - simply put they want to kill all the old stuff to force players to use new garbage (at least until people find the latest good stuff and ONLY use that taking away practically all choice) Reason 2: Bungie want to "retire" all the guns just to bring them back later as content - similar to how they brought back Y1 guns like last hope, dire promise and old fashioned they want to remove all the guns so they can resell them behind later dlcs and force players to regrind for it - a pure scumbag move through and through. No one should be for the change because the change is not for the player - weapon retirement is an awful decision that should be totally and completely repelled by the community. [spoiler]Side note to those that feel pinnacle/ritual weapons specifically are too strong: even if I agreed (and I'm not saying I do) why on earth would a bare handful of weapons mean we retire everything? You feel the pinnacle/rituals should be retired? I can hear the argument, the 99% of other stuff? Absolutely not[/spoiler]
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8 답변You are limiting choice but you aren't at the same time. [b][i][u]You[/u][/i][/b] by default are limiting yourself by using the same loadouts all the time. Bungie excludes your coveted weapons from top pinnacle activities (10 % of the game?) So the next plethora of weapons released get their time to shine and function with the game. You're opening up more doors than you're closing.
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You can’t really put the blame on bungie if you only just acquired not forgotten. Guns been available for well over a year. I see everyone and their mother crying about this change but I’m yet to see a solution that’s been proposed. And no giving us interesting new perks isn’t an answer because they literally did that in season of dawn and nobody gave the new perks a chance even tho the grenade element one was actually really good.
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I think they need to reexamine the entire infusion system. I’m not sure what the alternative would be, but here’s one thought: Rather than calculating LL based off of gear score, maybe it would make sense for it to be based off of character XP similar to how the seasonal artifact works. For every large chunk of XP earned, your characters overall LL gets a +1. When that happens, and you move from say 1004 to 1005, all of your gear does too. Everything would automatically move up to 1005 from 1004 - weapons and armor. So no infusion needed, and you can then use your hard-earned currency/planetary mats to MW the items that best suit your build. If Bungie did something like this, it would finally allow people to play the game how they want. Yes, certain activities like raids and other end-game content would still award the biggest chunks of XP (and maybe even bonus loot since it is end-game stuff) but any activity you run would help you level up. If you want to run NFs or Quickplay non-stop, go for it. No matter what, you’re making progress rather than being limited to a few “pinnacle” activities.
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In regards to making better guns, Luke Smith is lying through his teeth. He hasn't made or given us one gun that is strong as or stronger than what we have. His real mission has been going on this entire time. Make us weaker and our guns weaker and make the enemies more annoying to make the game "appear harder." He even went so far as to make grandmaster nightfalls for Gladd and his lot. Luke Smith lies so often he believes himself and expects everyone else to believe him. We will never have good guns again if he does this and i will not play the game again until they get rid of him.
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It’s a phony excuse. Destiny has always stayed within weapon archetypes. There are no surprises. They have like 5 pinnacle weapons they would have to keep track of. Besides that nothing else goes outside archetypes that have been and always will be in the game.
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For anyone for it The argument you are making here is that if the player likes something it should be taken away from them...... people gravitate to what they tend to like for example I mainly use Handcannons and shotguns or snipers. I don’t usually touch fusion rifles, Smg’s and I honestly don’t like autos because they don’t fit my play style(except Breakneck in pve I love that thing lol) so when this season launched I looked at the shotgun and the Handcannon and said yep I want it lol and with enough grinding I got a really good roll on my shotgun..... guess what it replaced my mindbenders that I’ve been using for forever.... is it better nope not really but it really works with my play style and I like it more. In year one I hated this game I felt like I had no choice but to use certain things and it killed my enthusiasm for this game very quick. I don’t like scout rifles but if you didn’t use Mida in the crucible you were screwed. Can you honestly say that is the same now? A lot of autos are dominating the crucible right now but I’m still fragging out at the top of the leaderboard using my hand cannons and my shotguns..... no the weapon retirement is taking away all choice for the next set of weapons they release.... how long till they release a good Handcannon when they start sun setting weapons?? What happens when they don’t release your favorite archetype of weapon with good perks for a whole year and your stuck using your least favorite weapon just because that’s the only choice you had??? Didn’t think about it that way did ya?? A whole lot of people are going to quit when that happens. Right now there are more options than ever and they could expand even more on those options but instead they don’t want make new things they want to do things like they have always have done and start selling us back the old weapons we liked and make us grind for it all over again I mean Destiny 2 might as well be named Destiny 1 but more money please for each part of it including the guns you liked oh but we aren’t going to give them all to you at once you will keep having to pay as we drip feed you content that we pulled from the first game
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2 답변작성자: Goldyglockss 4/30/2020 11:26:15 PMLUKE SMITH is a lazy lying idiot who is ruining this game at every twist and turn. The truth is the dipshit only wants to take away our guns (like every other time ie. tower blown up) so he can reskin them and sell it back to us. -blam!- YOU LUKE SMITH. You are an idiot and should be run out of the gaming world. This game died the minute you took over and i have hated EVERYTHING you have touched and done. You are nothing more than a cheating, win trading to get to 5500 cheater and liar ("i play trials on Friday night"). You will not be happy until you drive this game into the ground. Nobody is playing this game. I have never seen the state of trials so bad and you are a complete and bumbling idiot. STOP FAVORING TITANS. STOP THE CONSTANT CHEATING - although they are just following your lead. QUIT THE GAME AND LET SOMEONE WHO ISN'T TRYING TO RUIN IT FIX ALL YOUR -blam!- UPS. You think fixing hardlight helped Trials but the real issue is Anteaus Wards. Once again the titans are give the most ridiculously overpowered, game breaking exotic. Just like oem this will go on forever and you wont fix it because Luke Smith is a titan main and he needs to have something that is overpowered over everyone else. Get good Luke Smith and know we aren't dumb and we know what a -blam!- up you really are.
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1 답변I think if anything, pinnacle weapons should get a pass. Some of us shed a lot of sweat and tears getting those. It’s a slap in the face to retire them. Like I said before, I use weapons I like and that appeal to me. If you make a new weapons and it’s actually GOOD, I’ll use it. Heck, I’ve been cheating on my Recluse with the 7th seraph SMG (I don’t even know the name of it) just because it rolled with Fourth Times the Charm and Firefly. That’s fun for me. But you won’t catch me using that auto rifle or hand cannon. I don’t like feeling like I’m gonna lose my favorite guns and hope to god I find these “new and improved” weapons to be just as fun/satisfying as my current favorites. Nothing will ever replace my Mountaintop I’m afraid. That one will hurt me the most to lose.
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3 답변If Bungie start to ‘sunset’ pinnacle weapons that I spent hours of my time trying to obtain. I will no longer play the game. If bungie do not value my time, I do not value their time.
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Bungie talking out their arses. They wanna retire weapons coz they cant balance their half arsed, bare minimum effort, reskinned crappy new content with certain weapons in common use. It also gives them the opportunity to reskin these weapons in the future and sell back to you in their season format. I can see by some of your comments that there are still a bunch of players so blinded by their love for destiny that theyre swallowing this bullcrap and celebrating the fact theyre going to be coned for more cash in the future.
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1 답변We see that Bungie can split pvp and pve balancing with the nerf to Hardlight. Instead of retiring weapons they could simply tune weapons in and out of favour in pve or pvp. Faster changes to the meta an dsandbox are needed not removing weapons and reskinning them later.
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3 답변I don’t necessarily agree. For me personally, I want to use the new loot when it gets released, rather than just infuse it into the same weapons I’ve been using for years. Now you may say just use what you want. And I do for the most part, unless I’m being forced to use a a certain loadout bc of seasonal mods and champions. The main issue is that it’s a lot harder to just relaxe and have fun. I don’t enjoy the completionist feel the game has at the moment. The incentive to play is to complete a task, not really play and enjoy the game. E.G Guardian Games. Most ppl are only playing to get Heir Apparent. To complete a task and then onto the next. Too much emphasis is put on the reward not the process of getting it. I definitely understand you’re point of view. But I think that retiring old stuff is good. I don’t see the point of playing season after season if the best legendaries in the game are the ones we got years ago.
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2 답변작성자: ScottyV550 4/30/2020 5:08:59 PM"It's work that we could be putting in to making new stuff..." -but you dont make new stuff??? (with the exception of Everver$e) Edit: The "I Got it" checklist is the ONLY reason im still playing ...and yet you still managed to screw that up with the "Cannot reacquire randomized gear" in Collections
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Weapon retirement is just a way to keep selling us the same stuff. So we can re-do pinnacles, etc. They are running of stuff to bring back from D1. I like the sub from this season, but I don't think it rolls with the perks I would want. Weapon retirement is also a way to remove or limit the most desirable perks. I never wanted a D2, but I would rather just flush D2 down the toilet and start fresh in D3. Of course, without a change in leadership, I'm sure we'll still end up right back in the same place.
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23 답변The weapon roll RNG is way too shitty in this game to take stuff away from us. I just got a Feeding Frenzy/Kill Clip Warden's Law after a YEAR AND a HALF and logic would suggest because it's from season 4 it will be among the first on the chopping block. Lame beyond belief.
