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작성자: DuBChiri2
2/21/2020 1:59:40 AM
67
Buffing primaries in crucible (Auto buff calculations included after TWAB)
The topic is becoming more and more popular as time goes on because special is being spammed more and more, but today instead of making a post about special I want to make one about primaries (link to that post about specials: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/255238660)
I'm going to start by saying that I don't fully believe that a primary buff will decrease the problem special ammo creates but some minor tweaks to improve the weapons that are somewhat lacking will be where I start.
Also, I know those 140 rpm handcannon posts are popping up and although I don't quite agree with the reasoning as to why, I figured I would set aside my opinion to provide a more open minded suggestion.
[b][u]General Change:[/u][/b]
Make all weapon damage numbers true/get rid of the damage rounding.
The rounding is misleading and unnecessary.
[b][u]Resilience level/Health[/u][/b] (for your information):
0=186
1=187
2=188
3=189
4=190
5=191
6=192
7=194
8=196
9=198
10=201
[b][u]Handcannons:[/u][/b]
[spoiler]
140s:
1. Increase precision damage from 70 (71 rounded) to 72.
Optimal ttk changes from 3 crit at 0.87 to 2 crit and 1 body at 0.87 against 5 resilience and below guardians.
2. Increase BASE range by 1.5 meters.
Helps differentiate them from 150s a bit beyond just a somewhat situational forgiveness improvement.
110s:
1. Increase rpm from 110 to 120.
New optimal ttk value becomes 1.00 instead of 1.07.
New bodyshot ttk value becomes 1.50 instead of 1.60.
[60/120×(3-1)=1.00
Minute/rpm×(#rounds to kill-1)=time]
2. Increase bodyshot damage from 50 to 54.
Optimal ttk changes from 2 crit and 1 body to 1 crit and 2 body against 9 resilience and below guardians.
3. Increase BASE range by 2 meters.
Their effective range needs to be better but their overall damage is so high that damage fall off has a lesser effect on them so I want to keep the increase a bit lower.
[/spoiler]
[b][u]Scouts:[/u][/b]
[spoiler]
150s:
1. Increase bodyshot damage from 38 to 43.
Bodyshot ttk drops from 6 body at 2.00 to 5 body at 1.60 to kill all resilience guardians.
180s:
1. Increase precision damage from 55 to 61.
2. Increase bodyshot damage from 35 to 41.
Now kills in 2 crit and 2 body down from 3 crit and 1 body against all guardians.
Bodyshot ttk drops from 6 body at 1.67 to 5 body at 1.33 against all guardians.
200s:
1. Increase bodyshot damage from 31 to 35.
Bodyshot ttk drops from 7 body at 1.80 to 6 body at 1.50 against all guardians.
260s:
1. Increase bodyshot damage from 28 to 30.
Now kills all guardians in 1.40 to the body (before it only killed 8 resilience and below guardians.
Now also kills all guardians in 3 crit and 2 body (before it only killed 9 resilience and below guardians).
No ttk change, this is all consistency.
[/spoiler]
[b][u]Autos:[/u][/b]
[spoiler]
450s:
1. Increase bodyshot damage from 18 to 20.
Bodyshot ttk changes from 11 body at 1.33 to 10 body at 1.20 against 9 resilience and below guardians.
Optimal ttk changes from 6 crit and 2 body to 5 crit and 3 body against 4 resilience and below guardians.
600s:
1. Increase precision damage from 22 to 23 (it already shows 23 because its rounding but it's actually not).
Now kills all guardians in 9 crits at 0.80 (improved from 9 crits at 0.80 against 9 resilience and below guardians).
2. Increase bodyshot damage from 14 to 15.
Bodyshot ttk changes from 14 body at 1.30 to 13 body at 1.20 against 7 resilience and below guardians.
Optimal ttk changes from 9 crit to 8 crit and 1 body against 9 resilience and below guardians.
[/spoiler]
[b][u]SMGs:[/u][/b]
[Spoiler]
750s:
1. Increase precision damage from 22 to 23.
No increase to optimal ttk value.
Optimal ttk improvement from 8 crit and 1 body against 5 resilience and below guardians to 8 crit and 1 body against 9 resilience and below guardians.
[/spoiler]
[b][u]Pulses:[/u][/b]
[spoiler]
450s:
1. Increase precision damage from 25 to 26.
No optimal ttk value increase.
2. Increase bodyshot damage from 16 to 17.
Optimal ttk improvement from 7 crit and 1 body against 5 resilience and below guardians to 6 crit and 2 body against 4 resilience and below guardians.
Bodyshot ttk changes from 12 body at 1.33 against 6 resilience and below guardians to 11 body at ___ against 1 resilience and below guardians.
[There is a bit of a problem when doing pulse rifle calculations.
Using the formula I have in the handcannon section will not give me the correct numbers.
This is likely due to the burst mechanic pulses have and so calculations done in the manner I was doing them would only give incorrect numbers.
The idea I provided should be fine for 450s as 1 resilience is so easy to get over anyways and it more than likely wouldn't become an important factor.]
[/spoiler]
This took WAY longer than I thought it was going to take so I'm going to stop here as this exhausts my brain because I'm doing so many calculations.
If there is an error please let me know because I was flip flopping numbers near the end and may have forgotten to adjust them.
I'll try to get at smgs some time later.
Also a quick note:
Some of these I specifically held back in buffing to allow resilience to play a bigger part in how effective certain weapons are against higher resilience guardians.
Example:
I'm ok with 140s killing in 2 crit and 1 body but I want players to be able to build against it if they spec for enough resilience.
Edit:
Ok, I added 750 smgs and 450 pulses to the list.
I can't fully guarantee the other archetypes of those weapons would be ok if I provided improvements so I'm going to avoid them.
Pulses and the other smgs for the most part are fine anyways in terms of damage and ttk.
Also, I know some people are worried about ace 2 tapping with momento mori and so tuning that weapon to not offer as much of a bonus would be the correct move to make.
But this post was for the general archetypes and I did not take exotics with bonuses, rpm changes, or wacky effects into mind.
So please forgive me if there is a problem there.
Edit #2:
Oh god I just looked at the TWAB changes and uh...im surprised.
So for those of you who want to know, they are buffing autos across the board which was something I personally was afraid of doing.
Here is those numbers:
[spoiler]
High-Impact Frame
22/35.2 Default/Precision (Previously 22/33)
Precision Frame
17/27.2 Default/Precision (Previously 17/25.5)
Adaptive Frame
15.75/25.2 Default/Precision (Previously 13.75/22)
Rapid-Fire Frame
13.4/20.1 Default/Precision (Previously 12.5/18.75)
Here's uh the ttk values afterwards:
360s:
Bodyshot doesn't change.
Optimal ttk will now be 5 crit and 1 body against 9 resilience and below guardians vs 1 resilience.
Nice.
450s:
Bodyshot doesnt change.
New fastest ttk is against 4 resilience and below guardians at 0.80 7 crit.
New optimal ttk against only against 1 resilience and below is 5 crit and 3 body .
Above 5 resilience, 6 crit and 2 body will be 0.93 like it is currently.
600s:
New fastest bodyshot ttk is 1.10 against 3 resilience and below guardians.
New fastest ttk is 8 crits (down from 9) at 0.70 against...all guardians...
New optimal ttk is 7 crits and 1 body against 7 resilience and below guardians.
Ridiculous.
720s:
New fastest bodyshot ttk is 0.916 (holy shit) against 1 resilience and below guardians at 12 body.
New fastest ttk is 0.75 at 10 crits(uh oh).
New optimal fastest optimal ttk is 8 crit and 2 body against 1 resilience and below guardians.
Average optimal ttk is 9 crit and 1 body against 7 resilience guardians till 1 8 is 10 crit.
Wow.
[/spoiler]
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3 답변I want to say that these auto rifle increases will be good. I made a topic a while back about buffing these weapons and I like to think it made a difference. However these might not affect PvE enough to make them useful. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. No doubt we will see a rise in SUROS Regime and Monte Carlo usage regardless.
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4 답변I'm not sure about high resilience but my duke consistently 1 head 2 body's guardians. If they are low enough resilience it two taps without a damage buff.
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1 답변
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22 답변It will solve the special ammo problem...because special ammo is only a problem because primary weapons have been underpowered now for almost 5 years. In early D1, the TTK in the Crucible was right aound 0.6 seconds. We had a primary meta because snipers who tried to tank primary fire wound up dead before they could compensate for the flinch....and primary weapon users could stand their ground and fight of shotgun rushes with their primary. So special weapons were largely situational weapons, and most fights were settled with guns. But all the players who came to the game from Halo complained that this TTK was too fast....and Jon Weisznewski wanted a more Halo like Crucible (hoop dreams for an e-sport) and all the game's primary weapons ended up getting nerfed until we got to the averate TTK of about 0.8 to 0.85 secs we have now (after a detour to nearly one second in early vanilla D2). The problem with that TTK is two-fold. 1. When you get to about the top third of the player base, Guardians move so fast that 1v1 primary gun fights are basically a waste of time. Everyone either strafes to cover...or is fast enough to RUN AWAY the moment the tide of a fight turns against them. So---since no one actually has to commit to a fight----they generallly end in someone getting a few shots, and the loser escaping to cover with a sliver of health left. 2 Special weapons compound this problem. One, because anyone with a primary is not a threat that anyone with a special weapon has to respect. So there is on range-penalty that needs to be paid. If I get caught out of shotgun range with a shot gun in my hands I can just FLY at you....and odds are I can close to shotgun distance before you the 800 milliseconds you need for your primary to kill. Even MORE likely (Aztecross' video) if you miss your head shots and the TTK moves towards 1 second or more. Two, because OHK wepaons actually kill at the speed fo play, so you put people down before they can run away. This is why special weapons nerfs never work....and all starving the game of special ammo does is result in people finding even more obnoxiouw ways to killl. Until we wound up with the grab-ass-team-shot meta of vanilla D2. But if you reduced the TTK 0.6 secs. You now have primary weapon users that are now a threat...and can stand their ground and fight off rushes. So fusion rifle spam goes down. Shotgun spam goes down because aping stops being a reliable stratgegy....and the skill floor for maining a shotgun goes up dramatically. ...and with flinch, you force snipers to back off, and stand down faster. But at that TTK, a good number of those primary fights that used to result in people escaping to cover, now result in kills. So now there is a price to be paid for losing situational awareness. Flanking becomes more effective....and gun fights get ended before other players can rotate over and interverne. So you encourage players to spread out and play more aggressively Rather than camp in the smallest part of the map.....clump up...and team shoot.
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5 답변Or, you could just make it that with every primary shot landed, it slows down somebody rushing just a little. This would make the rush, risky, which it really is not now. It would also make evading a primary user a bit harder.
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1 답변
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2 답변I agree with everything. But I do think that 140s and 110s need more of an adjustment that what you suggested. 140s should be able kill at 32-33 m and should 2 crit 1 body. 110s should have slightly more range that and 1 crit 2 body. 150s need an AA nerf and and 140s and 110s need a AA buff. Also we need flinch removed entirely from all primaries and special ammo reduced.
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1 답변I think we should go back to D1 damage values on pretty much every primary weapon with a few changes thrown in, like 140s being 2c1b instead of 1c2b as an example. Buffing body shot damage helps consistency but if you solely do that without buffing precision damage you just continue lowering the skill floor of the game..and D2 already has a low skill floor as is. While special weapons are strong the overabundance of special ammo is a huge contributing factor to this. They should try disabling Scavenger perks in PvP and see how it plays it; a lot would change when people go from getting two to three shots a brick to just one.
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4 답변
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3 답변작성자: Chookity-pok__ 2/20/2020 8:20:10 AM*laughs in Bygones* Reasons I die in cruciple when using my primaries: - I have no backup from my team (my fault and theirs) - I'm too far out in the open - I didn't use cover to peak out of and pick away at the enemy - My aim was poor - I didn't use my weapon ranges appropriately - I was too static during the engagement - I rushed the enemy when I should have stayed back - I didn't use my 'radar' effectively I'm average, but those are quick wins when using primaries. Things I should have done when I got killed by a: Sniper- I should have taken another route when I saw the sniper, and stop floating around in the open. Shotgun- I shouldn't have used a medium to long range weapon during a close engagement. Hiding around a corner waiting for an enemy will lead to me getting shot in the face. G/Launcher- I should have simply reacted quicker. Fusion rifle- I have nothing for this. My skill level against them needs work. They have some crazy range and accuracy, really dislike coming up against them.
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11 답변Who needs primaries when you could just use a shotgun,sniper rifle, and fusion rifle and just one shot everyone. Seriously how many people have replied with this.
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Special ammo needs slight modifications! You can run round with special ammo pretty much the whole match. One guy was running mind benders and didn’t even pull a primary last night. Ended up with 25 shotgun kills using just that.
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Some changes definitely need to be made to specific archetypes, but maybe not everything. [spoiler]Thank you for putting actual time and thought into your post. We don’t often get many posts here that do. [/spoiler]
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2 답변[quote]The topic is becoming more and more popular as time goes on because special is being spammed more and more, but today instead of making a post about special I want to make one about primaries (link to that post about specials: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/255238660) I'm going to start by saying that I don't fully believe that a primary buff will decrease the problem special ammo creates but some minor tweaks to improve the weapons that are somewhat lacking will be where I start. Also, I know those 140 rpm handcannon posts are popping up and although I don't quite agree with the reasoning as to why, I figured I would set aside my opinion to provide a more open minded suggestion. [b][u]General Change:[/u][/b] Make all weapon damage numbers true/get rid of the damage rounding. The rounding is misleading and unnecessary. [b][u]Resilience level/Health[/u][/b] (for your information): 0=186 1=187 2=188 3=189 4=190 5=191 6=192 7=194 8=196 9=198 10=201 [b][u]Handcannons:[/u][/b] [spoiler] 140s: 1. Increase precision damage from 70 (71 rounded) to 72. Optimal ttk changes from 3 crit at 0.87 to 2 crit and 1 body at 0.87 against 5 resilience and below guardians. 2. Increase BASE range by 1.5 meters. Helps differentiate them from 150s a bit beyond just a somewhat situational forgiveness improvement. 110s: 1. Increase rpm from 110 to 120. New optimal ttk value becomes 1.00 instead of 1.07. New bodyshot ttk value becomes 1.50 instead of 1.60. [60/120×(3-1)=1.00 Minute/rpm×(#rounds to kill-1)=time] 2. Increase bodyshot damage from 50 to 54. Optimal ttk changes from 2 crit and 1 body to 1 crit and 2 body against 9 resilience and below guardians. 3. Increase BASE range by 2 meters. Their effective range needs to be better but their overall damage is so high that damage fall off has a lesser effect on them so I want to keep the increase a bit lower. [/spoiler] [b][u]Scouts:[/u][/b] [spoiler] 150s: 1. Increase bodyshot damage from 38 to 43. Bodyshot ttk drops from 6 body at 2.00 to 5 body at 1.60 to kill all resilience guardians. 180s: 1. Increase precision damage from 55 to 61. 2. Increase bodyshot damage from 35 to 41. Now kills in 2 crit and 2 body down from 3 crit and 1 body against all guardians. Bodyshot ttk drops from 6 body at 1.67 to 5 body at 1.33 against all guardians. 200s: 1. Increase bodyshot damage from 31 to 35. Bodyshot ttk drops from 7 body at 1.80 to 6 body at 1.50 against all guardians. 260s: 1. Increase bodyshot damage from 28 to 30. Now kills all guardians in 1.40 to the body (before it only killed 8 resilience and below guardians. Now also kills all guardians in 3 crit and 2 body (before it only killed 9 resilience and below guardians). No ttk change, this is all consistency. [/spoiler] [b][u]Autos:[/u][/b] [spoiler] 450s: 1. Increase bodyshot damage from 18 to 20. Bodyshot ttk changes from 11 body at 1.33 to 10 body at 1.20 against 9 resilience and below guardians. Optimal ttk changes from 6 crit and 2 body to 5 crit and 3 body against 4 resilience and below guardians. 600s: 1. Increase precision damage from 22 to 23 (it already shows 23 because its rounding but it's actually not). Now kills all guardians in 9 crits at 0.80 (improved from 9 crits at 0.80 against 9 resilience and below guardians). 2. Increase bodyshot damage from 14 to 15. Bodyshot ttk changes from 14 body at 1.30 to 13 body at 1.20 against 7 resilience and below guardians. Optimal ttk changes from 9 crit to 8 crit and 1 body against 9 resilience and below guardians. [/spoiler] [b][u]SMGs:[/u][/b] [Spoiler] 750s: 1. Increase precision damage from 22 to 23. No increase to optimal ttk value. Optimal ttk improvement from 8 crit and 1 body against 5 resilience and below guardians to 8 crit and 1 body against 9 resilience and below guardians. [/spoiler] [b][u]Pulses:[/u][/b] [spoiler] 450s: 1. Increase precision damage from 25 to 26. No optimal ttk value increase. 2. Increase bodyshot damage from 16 to 17. Optimal ttk improvement from 7 crit and 1 body against 5 resilience and below guardians to 6 crit and 2 body against 4 resilience and below guardians. Bodyshot ttk changes from 12 body at 1.33 against 6 resilience and below guardians to 11 body at ___ against 1 resilience and below guardians. [There is a bit of a problem when doing pulse rifle calculations. Using the formula I have in the handcannon section will not give me the correct numbers. This is likely due to the burst mechanic pulses have and so calculations done in the manner I was doing them would only give incorrect numbers. The idea I provided should be fine for 450s as 1 resilience is so easy to get over anyways and it more than likely wouldn't become an important factor.] [/spoiler] This took WAY longer than I thought it was going to take so I'm going to stop here as this exhausts my brain because I'm doing so many calculations. If there is an error please let me know because I was flip flopping numbers near the end and may have forgotten to adjust them. I'll try to get at smgs some time later. Also a quick note: Some of these I specifically held back in buffing to allow resilience to play a bigger part in how effective certain weapons are against higher resilience guardians. Example: I'm ok with 140s killing in 2 crit and 1 body but I want players to be able to build against it if they spec for enough resilience. Edit: Ok, I added 750 smgs and 450 pulses to the list. I can't fully guarantee the other archetypes of those weapons would be ok if I provided improvements so I'm going to avoid them. Pulses and the other smgs for the most part are fine anyways in terms of damage and ttk. Also, I know some people are worried about ace 2 tapping with momento mori and so tuning that weapon to not offer as much of a bonus would be the correct move to make. But this post was for the general archetypes and I did not take exotics with bonuses, rpm changes, or wacky effects into mind. So please forgive me if there is a problem there.[/quote] Any suggestions on 750 RPM Auto Rifles?
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1 답변All we really need is for 140s and Autos to get a buff. Maybe 110s too. Someone else said this and is my feeling exactly. Everything else is fine. Things would be disrupted way too much. We've finally started smoothing out the imbalances properly. This would threaten all of that and could force us to start all over with balancing.
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1 답변
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3 답변Agree with some but not all - some weapons shouldn’t have consistency to kill all resilience equally, that takes away any reason to have resilience. Also some weapons at different rpm’s shouldn’t take the same amount of shots to kill as lower RPM higher impact versions (like how you have 150 and 180 scouts - 150’s become pointless) I agree body shot damage on most weapons needs to be adjusted. I don’t believe precision needs it though. Start small and adjust up slowly as we go, otherwise the whole meta gets thrown off and we end up with something like we did in D1 where 1 weapon type ruled all (first autos, then hand cannons, specially thorn when it 2 shot, then pulse rifles) - D2 has already been kind of like that but not nearly as bad as it was in D1. In the current sandbox you can still compete with a range of weapons that aren’t 150 hand cannons and come putt on top. It’s easy to look at a spread sheet and say “this looks balanced” but once it gets implemented in game it can end up being a whole different story (as we have seen in the past)
