{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
작성자: IceApfel
9/27/2018 4:10:50 PM
57
Byf´s theory - a counter argument
[Spoiler Warning for unreleased lore]
First off, I deeply respect everything this guy does. I love his content and truly belive he is the lore hero we need. But for this one time, I can´t agree with him
In his most recent video, he details his thoughts on the most recent happenings in the Dreaming City and his conclusion on what Savathun´s true materplan is.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fSdh1AHyj8&t=1046
To get where I´m coming from with my conclusion, read this post I made, if you want to. Don´t feel forced, as I will try to get this posts point across here too.
Link: https://www.bungie.net/de/Forums/Post/248833294?page=0&sort=0&showBanned=0&path=1
-------------------------------------
To summarize what he concluded (at least how I understood it), he says, that Savathun is gathering tribute from the causal loop. She gathers the tribute fom all the killing happening during the three weeks, which repeat infinetly. The loop is reset by us killing Dul Incaru.The loop can´t be broken.
On its own, that´s very plausible. But there is some evidence against that.
I don´t think the causal loop is Savathuns "murder battery" and its not benefitting her true plan.
Now let me present some counter arguments:
1. Medusa and the causal loop:
(Quote from: act|coose|react, lore entry)
[i]"[...]The Vex indicates to you that it is Quria, Blade Transform, and that it created Medusa to communicate with you.[...]"[/i]
So Medusa is not Quria herself and rather a communication device. Byf is somewhat right with the death of Dul Incaru causing the loop, but it´s actually Medusa/Quria who is the cause.
(Quote from: act|coose|react, lore entry)
[i]"[...]When you defeated Dûl Incaru in turn, I reset the entire Dreaming City to keep her permanently occupied battling you. You must use these loops to find a way to permanently destroy her.[..]"[/i]
This is Medusa/Quira talking to us.
2. The actual masterplan and Dul Incaru´s purpose:
Dul Incaru, daughter of Savathun, has a much more important role in Savathun´s plan. Instead of being a living reset button, she is infiltrating the Dreaming City in search of a key. The key to the Distributary. What is that you ask? It´s "the realm the Dreaming City dreams of..." . What that means is, its connected to the Dreaming City. The Distributary is fact the realm the Awoken were "born" in. They woke up there after their alien encounter on their exodus journey. They lived eternal lives there, until Mara led them back to our realm. In the Distributray, time passes much much faster.
Now to the plan. Savathun wants to get to the Distributary. There, she will gather tribute of a million years in a tiny amount of our time.
(Quote from: react|coose|act, lore entry)
[i]"[...]After observing Dûl Incaru during many loops, this simulation reveals her purpose in the Dreaming City. She seeks the key to the Distributary, the world the Dreaming City dreams of, where the Awoken were born and time passes at an accelerated rate. Once she conquers that world, she will use it as a base to gather thousands or millions of years of tribute in a very small span of our time. A being empowered by so much ontological authority would be capable of altering reality at a whim. You must prevent this. I will continue to loop the Dreaming City until you find a way to defeat her permanently.[...]"[/i]
That´s the idea she is reffering to in "Thank you", the lore entire Byf uses to proof his point. Dul Incaru is searching the Dreaming City for the key, and we have to stop her. This is why Quria made the loop. To trap Incaru in a loop of dying, to stop her from ever obtaining the key and buying us time.
Quria is definetly betraying Savathun, with our help.
3. Consequences of "Last Whish"
There has been many specluation to what wish "the last wish" is referring too. Byf belives Savathun wished the corruption into the Dreaming City. I can see this as an option, but here´s another one:
(Quote from: act|coose|react, lore entry)
[i][...]"When you killed Riven, she granted your wish to see the city made safe. But as all wishgranters do, she perverted that wish, opening the Dreaming City to Dûl Incaru.[...][/i]
We, the guardian, made a wish before killing Riven. This twisted wish brought Dul Incaru here. Not Savathun. I´m not going to say that our wish was indeed the "last wish", because that honor could still go to the witch queen. I´m also not saying that our wish brought the corruption, that´s even more likely to have been Savathuns wish.
-------------------------------------
I know I have thrown these arguments and quotes around a whole bunch, but I think this could be what´s actually going on. If my take turns out to be right, I want it to be known and out there. With Byf´s huge reach and influence, I just wanted to stop the spread of misinformation, if I´m even right and he´s wrong. Don´t see this as a personal attack against him. I love the man.
Links to the used lore entries:
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/injection?highlight=Medusa
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/reactchooseact?highlight=Medusa
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/actchoosereact?highlight=Medusa
I hope you enjoyed this. Stay open mined and search for the truth.
-
4 답변So..... Savathun is the protaganist? By letting her Daughter kill everything for Savagethun's own benefit. Savathun = Thanos
-
17 답변I don’t think these theories contradict each other. Remember, Savathun claimed her plan was to substitute tithing destruction for tithing not understanding her. Could it be that she was aware Quaria would try to betray her, and fed it a fake plan to “thwart,” and in so doing, assure her true plan? By creating the loop Quaria thinks is necessary to stop Savathun’s (fake) plan to find the key to the Distributary, Quaria unwittingly tithes all the destruction of the three week cycle to Savathun. A death battery fueled by having her plan not be understood.
-
[quote][Spoiler Warning for unreleased lore] First off, I deeply respect everything this guy does. I love his content and truly belive he is the lore hero we need. But for this one time, I can´t agree with him In his most recent video, he details his thoughts on the most recent happenings in the Dreaming City and his conclusion on what Savathun´s true materplan is. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fSdh1AHyj8&t=1046 To get where I´m coming from with my conclusion, read this post I made, if you want to. Don´t feel forced, as I will try to get this posts point across here too. Link: https://www.bungie.net/de/Forums/Post/248833294?page=0&sort=0&showBanned=0&path=1 ------------------------------------- To summarize what he concluded (at least how I understood it), he says, that Savathun is gathering tribute from the causal loop. She gathers the tribute fom all the killing happening during the three weeks, which repeat infinetly. The loop is reset by us killing Dul Incaru.The loop can´t be broken. On its own, that´s very plausible. But there is some evidence against that. I don´t think the causal loop is Savathuns "murder battery" and its not benefitting her true plan. Now let me present some counter arguments: 1. Medusa and the causal loop: (Quote from: act|coose|react, lore entry) [i]"[...]The Vex indicates to you that it is Quria, Blade Transform, and that it created Medusa to communicate with you.[...]"[/i] So Medusa is not Quria herself and rather a communication device. Byf is somewhat right with the death of Dul Incaru causing the loop, but it´s actually Medusa/Quria who is the cause. (Quote from: act|coose|react, lore entry) [i]"[...]When you defeated Dûl Incaru in turn, I reset the entire Dreaming City to keep her permanently occupied battling you. You must use these loops to find a way to permanently destroy her.[..]"[/i] This is Medusa/Quira talking to us. 2. The actual masterplan and Dul Incaru´s purpose: Dul Incaru, daughter of Savathun, has a much more important role in Savathun´s plan. Instead of being a living reset button, she is infiltrating the Dreaming City in search of a key. The key to the Distributary. What is that you ask? It´s "the realm the Dreaming City dreams of..." . What that means is, its connected to the Dreaming City. The Distributary is fact the realm the Awoken were "born" in. They woke up there after their alien encounter on their exodus journey. They lived eternal lives there, until Mara led them back to our realm. In the Distributray, time passes much much faster. Now to the plan. Savathun wants to get to the Distributary. There, she will gather tribute of a million years in a tiny amount of our time. (Quote from: react|coose|act, lore entry) [i]"[...]After observing Dûl Incaru during many loops, this simulation reveals her purpose in the Dreaming City. She seeks the key to the Distributary, the world the Dreaming City dreams of, where the Awoken were born and time passes at an accelerated rate. Once she conquers that world, she will use it as a base to gather thousands or millions of years of tribute in a very small span of our time. A being empowered by so much ontological authority would be capable of altering reality at a whim. You must prevent this. I will continue to loop the Dreaming City until you find a way to defeat her permanently.[...]"[/i] That´s the idea she is reffering to in "Thank you", the lore entire Byf uses to proof his point. Dul Incaru is searching the Dreaming City for the key, and we have to stop her. This is why Quria made the loop. To trap Incaru in a loop of dying, to stop her from ever obtaining the key and buying us time. Quria is definetly betraying Savathun, with our help. 3. Consequences of "Last Whish" There has been many specluation to what wish "the last wish" is referring too. Byf belives Savathun wished the corruption into the Dreaming City. I can see this as an option, but here´s another one: (Quote from: act|coose|react, lore entry) [i][...]"When you killed Riven, she granted your wish to see the city made safe. But as all wishgranters do, she perverted that wish, opening the Dreaming City to Dûl Incaru.[...][/i] We, the guardian, made a wish before killing Riven. This twisted wish brought Dul Incaru here. Not Savathun. I´m not going to say that our wish was indeed the "last wish", because that honor could still go to the witch queen. I´m also not saying that our wish brought the corruption, that´s even more likely to have been Savathuns wish. ------------------------------------- I know I have thrown these arguments and quotes around a whole bunch, but I think this could be what´s actually going on. If my take turns out to be right, I want it to be known and out there. With Byf´s huge reach and influence, I just wanted to stop the spread of misinformation, if I´m even right and he´s wrong. Don´t see this as a personal attack against him. I love the man. Links to the used lore entries: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/injection?highlight=Medusa https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/reactchooseact?highlight=Medusa https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/actchoosereact?highlight=Medusa I hope you enjoyed this. Stay open mined and search for the truth.[/quote] This is exactly what I interpreted from the lore. That's why we learned about the distributary. The battery of tribute she seeks is there, not the dreaming city.
-
17 답변Byf has always made huge presumptions in his videos. Myelin is a much better interpreter of the lore in this game. I remember Byf claiming we would go on a quest to meet Efrideet, which we didn't, but he claimed he was right because we got a thing that said 'Talk to Efrideet' Or his guest on Fireteam Chat where he wouldn't shut up
-
1 답변holy crap that is a lot of stuff to read but for me to summarize it up, you and byf should do an unreleased lore video sometime
-
7 답변작성자: Stiks 10/1/2018 2:38:25 PMI honestly think that the sisters, Savathun and Xivu Arath are trying to resseruct Oryx from his true death. Oryx resurrected his sister's from their true deaths by tremendous feats of war and trickery on the Ecumene. What better way to bring back Oryx, The god of discovery. By stealing all the secrets from the Dreaming City? Maybe were soon going to be facing Oryx, and his two sisters for the finale of D2? The Osmium trio for the Bing bang? Then D3 the Darkness arrives... My take on the matter anyways... Because the Book of Sorrows reference many things that are coming into play and i think that's what this has been building up too.. For example: Finally meeting Osiris, freeing Rasputin and recognizing him not only as a weapon... because we're going to need their help when taking on the Osmium trio... I'm no lore expert by any means.. this is just simply my theory.
-
Yeah, Byf shouldn't be taking sides here. Honestly no one has any idea what Savathûn's true plan is - there's at least 3 separate motives listed in the lore, any of which are plausible, and on top of that we have NO idea who's really talking to us, whether it be Dûl Incaru, Savathûn, Eris, Medusa or Quria. I personally believe Eris is being controlled by Savathûn to mislead us, but I still believe Medusa is real. However I simply can't prove that, it's just a basic theory, and neither can Byf. The "Distributary" plan is referenced twice - once by Medusa, once by Savathûn, but the "murder battery" theory is only loosely implied by Savathûn, and even that might only be what Dûl Incaru's interpretation of events (look at the language of that entry). At the end of the day we have no idea what's going on really, and neither does Byf.
-
1 답변작성자: CatlikeArcher 9/28/2018 8:17:54 PMI love Byf as well and my interest in the lore and half of my knowledge of it comes from him. But I also disagreed or at least questioned his idea. It seemed rather defeatist to me. I don’t particularly have my own theory and I’m not trying to maliciously pick apart yours, but just promote debate. Anyway I have a few issues with your ideas as well. The big one is that Quria, Blade Transform actively lies to us. This calls into question almost all of her statements as being untrustworthy and it seems to me that most of your theory is based on her quotes. In addition, (I’m fairly certain that) she was Taken by Oryx when she invaded his throne world. Usually when people are Taken, their wills are stripped from them and they become puppets almost. Maybe because Quria is so powerful, this didnt happen, or maybe when Oryx died the Taken were given self-determination, however this seems rather unlikely. Basically what I’m saying is that I think statements from Quria can only be used as secondary evidence as she doesn’t seem to be trustworthy.
-
4 답변The vex is helping us! In that case what we are doing is very bad or savathun will be a galaxy destroyer.
-
9 답변
-
6 답변Basically it boils down to this. The loop is being used to aid the Guardians in finding a way to prema-death Dul. To cut all the waffle short it boils down to this. The wish ender bow is likely the key to ending the wish and thus the curse. The raid was where the wish was made but, the shattered throne is where it must end. I don't think it's a co-incidence that the bow is called the wish ender nor that it is located in the shattered throne and is the only thing that can kill the Ahamkara eggs. I suspect the bow has a secondary purpose that is not related to PvP or PvE but, rather the whole dreaming city storyline. This would make it the first exotic that is effectively "Required by all players".
-
No problem with arguing with him, no need to state that, a theory is a theory my guy. Personally I haven't touched on too much of the Dreaming City shit yet, I'd rather keep myself suprised for any "mYsYeRiOuS pLaNs" that might be looming with mama Thun. Lol
-
4 답변
-
1 답변
-
5 답변작성자: wilkie2726 9/28/2018 11:57:54 AMHey man, I've been thinking along these lines since I watched byf's video...especially how he causally links the murder battery to the causal loop - I think he has not got to the Eris/Medusa/Dul Incaru lore cards so without this information he may ultimately be mistaken. Anyway, I think your post elegantly explains what Dul and Savathun are up to much better than Byf's loose theory - could I PLEASE post this on r/DestinyLore? Go ahead and post yourself, I just want people to read this- Byf has HUGE reach and if he is mistaken, this could lead to another dark age like when everyone thought Rasputin shot the Traveller!
-
2 답변
-
6 답변It doesn't really matter whose theory is correct, I know how this all ends. Like her brother before her, we'll carve out her worm and use it as the battery on a new toy. That's how the cycle truly ends.
-
1 답변작성자: Frozen7hunder 9/28/2018 6:37:48 AMDamn I liked yours better than byfs. And it even sounds more plausible! Good job sir.
-
2 답변작성자: ZoniCat 9/27/2018 9:01:04 PMAlright, what I want to know is, Why the distributary? Why not the infinite forest? We know from the first mercury mission that about 30 minutes there equates to 3 seconds or so in real time. Would that just not be fast enough? Personally, I think either this is one of the biggest over-looks ever made within a story, or Savathun plans to use the distributary for more than just tribute.
-
In another lore entry where Savathun is discussing her grand design with a thrall, she refers to her original plan of placing an ascendant in orbit of a black hole or something. Could she somehow be connected with the origin of the Awoken and Distributary? This could explain how she even would know about it outside of Riven, or the earlier encounters between the Awoken and Oryx.
-
1 답변I have one thing to say against your last point. Riven says in her last line of dialogue within the raid. “I cannot wait to show you what [u]SHE[/u] asked for.” Which is different to what you think. A female made the last wish and the line doesn’t change depending on your guardians gender.
