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작성자: x Nerdy Dad x
9/14/2018 2:03:58 PM
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And the 4 have the ability to counter him if they communicate.
Come on people. The invader spawns in 3 general areas on each map. Youtube and you will have an idea of where to look. Now by look I don't mean jump around in the great wide open with your pea shooter by yourself like I see so many of you do.
Sleeper can be countered effectively. with I dont know maybe another sleeper? Jeesh.
EDIT: Sorry I should not tell other to use the sleeper as many of you will be here whining that it is to hard to get so that is not fair either.
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I laugh, because sleeper is one of the easiest exotic quests, aside from the ones at launch that they basically just hand to you (looking at you Mida). If it was something like Y1 Thorn, I might understand, but anyone can get sleeper in a day, basically. But you're right, there are many viable counters out there, just no one wants to have to adjust their play style to avoid one thing killing them...like always. Maybe this is what happens when we get PvE players in PvP: they start asking for something to be changed because it's ruining the experience...not realizing it will ruin the gun in PvE too. That's some irony for you.
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A) The fact that the only good or easily accessible counter you can provide is to use the same thing you're trying to counter... is the very evidence that there is a problem. B) It's not Sleeper that needs to be changed, it's the game mode. Calm down with the assumptions that every problem has to be related directly to one piece of gear.
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I can't take you seriously for a single reason: your second statement directly contradicts your first statement. You say in one breath that the only counter to sleeper is sleeper (which it is definitely not), a.k.a., one piece of gear. And then you say that the problem is also not one piece of gear. Those two points can't coexist in the same argument and still both be correct; hopefully you can see that. If not, we have a bigger issue. So let's ignore sleeper entirely, as I don't think it's a problem in Gambit at all. What changes need to happen to the mode? I don't see anything out of whack. mainly, the issue seems to be that people get too busy slaying out, and don't pay attention to how many motes they have, and when invasions are either happening, or about to happen. If your team banks all their motes as soon as an invasion is near, and then continues to bank as soon as they have 5, an invader killing you doesn't really matter. The whole point isn't to get kills, but to get kills on high-value players, so if you deny them that ability, it's just an annoyance. So tell us where the changes need to occur, without talking about a weapon, and we'll discuss from there.
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I'm sorry that you lack strength in logic. I said the fact that YOUR primary recommendation to counter Sleeper, in which you said was to also use Sleeper, is the sign of a problem. I did also say Sleeper didn't need to change, correct. That's called critical thinking. It's a skill you may want to invest in improving. The point behind that statement is that if you nerf Sleeper because of Gambit, you: 1) revert a buff you literally just gave the gun, and that just looks silly 2) cause people to light the forums on fire with the usual hate-drivel because it's a nerf, and those are always "the end of the world" 3) don't actually fix the problem because the tools provided to the Invader will make any other Linear Fusion or Sniper Rifle just as annoying as Sleeper is now, even with the fact that it still provides a tiny bit more diversity, because there would still only be a very small pool of weapons that are viable, which means again, the problem mever left, so you nerfed a weapon for no reason. Gambit is what needs a change to fix this issue. The fact that you can see the names of enemies is what will always make Linear Fusions and Snipers the must-use weapons in Gambit. Take that away, and suddenly many people will steer away from them, and you have a much more varied, and thus healthy, Gambit loadout balance. Then you have to still make sure the Invader is not at a huge disadvantage. They can already see the enemy players on radar like normal, but without names, once spotted, you're gonna die a lot easier. So there are several different options here: 1) remove the red glow around the Invader 2) remove the Invader from enemy radar 3) slightly increase the effectiveness of the Invader Overshield 4) increase ability regeneration speed for the Invader. There are many to chose from, more than I've even listed. All you have to do is find the right combination of one or more of these types of changes that keeps 1v4 balanced without the wallhacks, and that would fix the issue at hand; one that most people believe is Sleeper, but is in fact the game mode itself.
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Firstly, don't be an insolent little shit. I say that not to be insulting, but to make the point that it doesn't serve the process of debate, and doesn't progress the discussion in a productive fashion. I don't know if I came across that way (and I won't look to see, because I can't be asked), but if so, my apologies, and I'll also attempt to refrain from further ass-hattery. I'm here to discuss the game and drive positive change, not have a pissing contest with someone. Cool? Cool. Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, consider one thing: I am not suggesting counters to sleeper because I think, "Erh meh Gerd, sleeper is so OP that we have to counter it!" More to the point of, it's just another heavy weapon guys, if you're really worried about it, here are the first 5 things that come to mind to counter it. I'd honestly be a lot more worried about a good sniper or a Play of the Game god than the sleeper (agreeing with your #3 point). They kill faster, and have less available counters than using the slowest linear fusion in the game, provided you actually have thumbs and can connect the shots (la, lalala). As to point #1, Bungie is know for doubling down, rather than walking back, so the buff will stand for quite a while, IMO. And for #2, anything that happens will cause this reaction, you're just choosing which group to piss off. Now, mode changes. I see where you are going with removing the player name tracking, but I have one issue with it: the primary point of early invasions is to target high-mote carrying targets: the more motes you can eliminate from the enemy team, the more effective you are as an invader. So to preserve that strategic element, I'd like to see a compromise: you get a 3-5 second window of seeing all the names, to give you an idea of who to go for, and you can see the name / mote count of anyone you have line of sight with. This isn't that different from normal functionality. I am iffy about the glow removal. I am a PvP player, and have no issue picking someone out of the background when they are on the other team, and you may be the same. However, the mode in general is made as a 95% PvE mode, meaning it is highly likely we will have PvE players in the lobbies that can't do this. I think a middle ground might be good: during the time the invader can see wallhacks, they themselves can be seen through walls (a.k.a., truesight): this fades in 3-5 seconds. From that point, the glow would not be present until the invader fires a shot, tosses a grenade, uses a melee, or activates a super, at which time, it begins the same 3-5 second cycle before it is removed again. Allow the invader to recharge the overshield, at a slower rate. Double the ability recharge rate of invaders, and put them on the same radar distance as we had in D1 (a.k.a, we were scanning for adds, not guardians, so we had more trouble detecting them). Roll it around, I'd be curious to know your thoughts on it.
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작성자: NobodyJustBrad 9/14/2018 4:34:32 PM[quote]Firstly, don't be an insolent little shit. I say that not to be insulting, but to make the point that it doesn't serve the process of debate, and doesn't progress the discussion in a productive fashion. I don't know if I came across that way (and I won't look to see, because I can't be asked), but if so, my apologies, and I'll also attempt to refrain from further ass-hattery. I'm here to discuss the game and drive positive change, not have a pissing contest with someone. Cool? Cool. [quote]I can't take you seriously for a single reason:[/quote][/quote] Don't worry, you did. [quote]Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, consider one thing: I am not suggesting counters to sleeper because I think, "Erh meh Gerd, sleeper is so OP that we have to counter it!" More to the point of, it's just another heavy weapon guys, if you're really worried about it, here are the first 5 things that come to mind to counter it. I'd honestly be a lot more worried about a good sniper or a Play of the Game god than the sleeper (agreeing with your #3 point). They kill faster, and have less available counters than using the slowest linear fusion in the game, provided you actually have thumbs and can connect the shots (la, lalala).[/quote] Yes, that's why the weapon itself should not be touched. It is good, but not OP. It is just the most effective in Gambit for one reason; ease of use with the tools provided to the Invader. Please note the things you said about those weapons: "A [u]good[/u] sniper" or a "play ofbthe game [u]god[/u]". It is some semblance of skill that allows those to be truly devastating. Which is fair, and balanced. But with the current tools given, a one shot body shot from any range is grossly easier, and that is why Sleeper is so dominant in Gambit. [quote]As to point #1, Bungie is know for doubling down, rather than walking back, so the buff will stand for quite a while, IMO.[/quote] I think the recent buff should and will stay. I have seen promising signs from Bungie to perform less knee-jerk adjustment, and more creative, well thought out ones lately. [quote]And for #2, anything that happens will cause this reaction, you're just choosing which group to piss off.[/quote] Yes, sort of. But the problem with nerfing Sleeper is that you will still have the same complaints about Snipers and other Linears, and then it was nerfed for no reason. Actually solving the issue is what needs to be done. [quote]Now, mode changes. I see where you are going with removing the player name tracking, but I have one issue with it: the primary point of early invasions is to target high-mote carrying targets: the more motes you can eliminate from the enemy team, the more effective you are as an invader. So to preserve that strategic element, I'd like to see a compromise: you get a 3-5 second window of seeing all the names, to give you an idea of who to go for, and you can see the name / mote count of anyone you have line of sight with. This isn't that different from normal functionality.[/quote] That is certainly one option that they could try, sure. I would even be interested in just having glows on the enemies for the Invader to see. Highlight a player that has 10+ or 15 Motes white and shiny, just like an HVT. Or maybe just periodically pulse the enemy player names, the more Motes you have, the higher frequency you are pulsed. So many options. [quote]I am iffy about the glow removal. I am a PvP player, and have no issue picking someone out of the background when they are on the other team, and you may be the same. However, the mode in general is made as a 95% PvE mode, meaning it is highly likely we will have PvE players in the lobbies that can't do this. I think a middle ground might be good: during the time the invader can see wallhacks, they themselves can be seen through walls (a.k.a., truesight): this fades in 3-5 seconds. From that point, the glow would not be present until the invader fires a shot, tosses a grenade, uses a melee, or activates a super, at which time, it begins the same 3-5 second cycle before it is removed again.[/quote] I honestly do not like the idea of the Invader being wallhacked at all. The first kill is usually due to the element of surprise, and I think that is one of the ingredients necessary to keep the 1v4 properly balanced. But maybe a glow that fades when the Invader is not shooting or using an ability, sure I could get on board with that. [quote]Allow the invader to recharge the overshield, at a slower rate. Double the ability recharge rate of invaders, and put them on the same radar distance as we had in D1 (a.k.a, we were scanning for adds, not guardians, so we had more trouble detecting them).[/quote] More good options to test. Like I said, there are a lot more options than what I suggested. Sleeper is the face of the problem, but not the source. I think you're on the right track here.
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[quote]Firstly, don't be an insolent little shit. I say that not to be insulting, but to make the point that it doesn't serve the process of debate, and doesn't progress the discussion in a productive fashion. I don't know if I came across that way (and I won't look to see, because I can't be asked), but if so, my apologies, and I'll also attempt to refrain from further ass-hattery. I'm here to discuss the game and drive positive change, not have a pissing contest with someone. Cool? Cool. [quote]I can't take you seriously for a single reason:[/quote] Don't worry, you did.[/quote] Don't worry, you did. [quote]Now that the pleasantries are out of the way, consider one thing: I am not suggesting counters to sleeper because I think, "Erh meh Gerd, sleeper is so OP that we have to counter it!" More to the point of, it's just another heavy weapon guys, if you're really worried about it, here are the first 5 things that come to mind to counter it. I'd honestly be a lot more worried about a good sniper or a Play of the Game god than the sleeper (agreeing with your #3 point). They kill faster, and have less available counters than using the slowest linear fusion in the game, provided you actually have thumbs and can connect the shots (la, lalala).[/quote] Yes, that's why the weapon itself should not be touched. It is good, but not OP. It is just the most effective in Gambit for one reason; ease of use with the tools provided to the Invader. Please note the things you said about those weapons: "A [u]good[/u] sniper" or a "play ofbthe game [u]god[/u]". It is some semblance of skill that allows those to be truly devastating. Which is fair, and balanced. But with the current tools given, a one shot body shot from any range is grossly easier, and that is why Sleeper is so dominant in Gambit. [quote]As to point #1, Bungie is know for doubling down, rather than walking back, so the buff will stand for quite a while, IMO.[/quote] I think the recent buff should and will stay. I have seen promising signs from Bungie to perform less knee-jerk adjustment, and more creative, well thought out ones lately. [quote]And for #2, anything that happens will cause this reaction, you're just choosing which group to piss off.[/quote] Yes, sort of. But the problem with nerfing Sleeper is that you will still have the same complaints about Snipers and other Linears, and then it was nerfed for no reason. Actually solving the issue is what needs to be done. [quote]Now, mode changes. I see where you are going with removing the player name tracking, but I have one issue with it: the primary point of early invasions is to target high-mote carrying targets: the more motes you can eliminate from the enemy team, the more effective you are as an invader. So to preserve that strategic element, I'd like to see a compromise: you get a 3-5 second window of seeing all the names, to give you an idea of who to go for, and you can see the name / mote count of anyone you have line of sight with. This isn't that different from normal functionality.[/quote] That is certainly one option that they could try, sure. I would even be interested in just having glows on the enemies for the Invader to see. Highlight a player that has 10+ or 15 Motes white and shiny, just like an HVT. Or maybe just periodically pulse the enemy player names, the more Motes you have, the higher frequency you are pulsed. So many options. [quote]I am iffy about the glow removal. I am a PvP player, and have no issue picking someone out of the background when they are on the other team, and you may be the same. However, the mode in general is made as a 95% PvE mode, meaning it is highly likely we will have PvE players in the lobbies that can't do this. I think a middle ground might be good: during the time the invader can see wallhacks, they themselves can be seen through walls (a.k.a., truesight): this fades in 3-5 seconds. From that point, the glow would not be present until the invader fires a shot, tosses a grenade, uses a melee, or activates a super, at which time, it begins the same 3-5 second cycle before it is removed again.[/quote] I honestly do not like the idea of the Invader being wallhacked at all. The first kill is usually due to the element of surprise, and I think that is one of the ingredients necessary to keep the 1v4 properly balanced. But maybe a glow that fades when the Invader is not shooting or using an ability, sure I could get on board with that. [quote]Allow the invader to recharge the overshield, at a slower rate. Double the ability recharge rate of invaders, and put them on the same radar distance as we had in D1 (a.k.a, we were scanning for adds, not guardians, so we had more trouble detecting them).[/quote] More good options to test. Like I said, there are a lot more options than what I suggested. Sleeper is the face of the problem, but not the source. I think you're on the right track here.
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A) If you utilize the tools given to you as an invader, you absolutely have an advantage even against the 4 that are communicating. If you think otherwise, you are the one not using them effectively. B) The exact PROBLEM with the Sleeper issue is what you're saying; to counter Sleeper with Sleeper. If that is the only viable counter, then there is MOST DEFINITELY a problem.
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What is the goal of the invader? What is the point in having him invade if he most likely can't get kills? The game mode would have zero point if the invader was coming over with weapons that could only kill maybe one person. The whole point is people freak out when an invader comes over which is how it should play and feel. I should be worried about losing my motes. Taking away that advantage would make the game mode just a race to the bank and kill the boss and take the strategy out completely.
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I'm not even reading past your moronic questions. THE TOOLS TO SUCCEED, WITH ANY WEAPON, ARE ALREADY GIVEN TO THE INVADER. ON TOP of that, there is a weapon that one shots any enemy player, at any range, to the body. That is a problem.
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I personally have zero problem handling myself around Sleeper, but okay, Mr. Angry. I'm over here brimming with ideas on how to effectively fix the issue with minor changes to the game mode itself instead of nerfing a weapon and having the problem remain anyway, but yeah. I'm just a scrub who clearly isn't consistently at the top of my team in nearly every Gambit match I've played to date, without using Sleeper ever. I definitely deserve that aggression and pathetic attempt at an insult. Yup.
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You call my questions moronic and i am Mr. Angry? Ok bud. I do agree the mode can be changed and not the gun. However as always with the community. What will be fixed will just cause another group to be angry and upset. The wheel goes around and around here. You know that.
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작성자: x Nerdy Dad x 9/14/2018 4:42:27 PMYou say you want to discuss the game mode itself but when i ask questions about the point of the invader which involves the mechanics of the game mode it is moronic. I guess this quote from you make no sense then. [quote]ON TOP of that, there is a weapon that one shots any enemy player, at any range, to the body. That is a problem.[/quote] So is it the game mode you want changed or the weapon nerfed? I am confused because you are arguing to not nerf the weapon saying the weapon isn't the issue which I agree with and then you say the weapon is the problem.
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Why do you continue with the moronic questions? I already told you it's the game mode that needs to change. All I pointed out about Sleeper was that it is the face of the problem. The SOURCE of the problem is the toolset available to Invaders. TL;DR so you can keep up = "Sleeper is fine. Fix the mode."
