That’s, not what I’m saying, those examples that have PvP as well if the PvP was removed the games would still thrive as most of their player base is part of the PvE communities in those games. But if you honestly think there’s PvP in the Borderlands series you are mistaken, you can’t access the arenas in the first game, they closed them down because of the nature of the game and the duel feature for BL2 and TPS doesn’t count at all, it’s just a gimmick of the trading feature not a proper PvP system.