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7/25/2017 8:38:01 PM
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The Design Philosophy of Destiny 2, and who this game is really for....

[b]"Destiny 2 is a convergence of veteran players, just like you, and new players into our Universe" -Luke Smith, Game Director, at the D2 reveal.[/b] These were the first words spoken by Luke Smith, and the first sign of bad things to come for actual Destiny players. Followed shortly thereafter by [b]"....if you are a competitive player, we've re-thought the Crucible from first principles, we're moving ALL activities in PVP to 4v4, we've rebuilt the sandbox in a bunch of ways, to 'smaller team formats'. We've done this because we want to create a sense of mastery. In order to master anything, you need to be able to understand it."[/b] Feeling insulted yet? Luke Smith didn't think that we understood the principles behind Destiny 1's PvP and that making the maps smaller, with less players and forcing weak primary weapons into our hands somehow made it "easier to understand". Never mind that there were ZERO tutorials in Destiny1 to explain ANYTHING from weapon perks to Crucible strategy to effective counters... we didn't understand it, apparently, even though most of us figured this stuff out without those tutorials. Enter Steve Cotton, the World Lead Designer: [b]".... i have 2 kids, and just like you guys, they play Destiny a lot.... (he goes on to talk about how 1 kid likes lone wolf play and patrolling the wilds, the other likes crucible and raiding with a clan).... The point is, there's a lot to do in Destiny and its this variety that can appeal to all of us", right? in any type of mood that we're in. [/b] Oh boy.... bad sign? Stay with me here.... Cotton goes on after mentioning a few activities: [b]And then there is the Crucible... we've made some big changes.... we're building it for "PvP Players". Its now 4v4 across all game modes (very sparse applause... people seem shell shocked hearing this in the crowd).[/b] He mentions HUD changes that inform you of certain aspects of enemy readiness... then: [b]... to make it an experience thats easy to get into, but its hard to master.[/b] LOL? Team shooting as a mastery technique? LOL again. He waits for applause, people don't know that this is time to applause. Its awkward. [b]So we've got new maps, new modes and we believe this is the best PvP offering that Destiny has ever seen.[/b] After playing this Beta, most of us know that its completely false. He goes on to talk about some actual promising things such as the new activities and the new worlds we will have to explore. Enter M.E Chung, Social lead: after telling us about the positives of the community and how the game has helped us make connections with people across the world, which in my opinion IS the best of what D1 offered, although it was a challenge to break through that barrier in the early goings and find a group to raid with due the lack of in game matchmaking, she goes on to talk about their solutions to that: They have half-fixed that with Guided games, a point that i am neutral to. Then she announces "shared rewards for being in a clan"-----> participation awards for not even having to participate. So your time spent in the game rewards the people that don't have to participate..... wow. I can't even imagine how this is going to go down, as we know that some people don't put the time in to earn rewards. It gives incentives to be in a clan, but not actually participate. Not sure yet if this all that bad, but.... Who is this design for? We're getting there..... Mark Noseworthy then comes on to bridge the gap between Bungie and Activision and introduces the Activision CEO Eric Hirshberg: he pumps up Bungie, then pumps up Sony, ignores xbox (wtf?) and mentions the new PC platform for the game. He intros the Blizzard CEO and he explains the way D2 will be delivered to to PC players..... then the hand-picked crowd of streamers and Youtubers rolls over to go play the Beta of D2. The same build that we just played in the beta, that NONE of them properly assessed before the beta dropped this past week. Still trying to figure out where i am going with this? Sorry, but there's more to address first. Now onto Deej... our impenetrable source of sweaty upper-lip-service in an E3 interview with Rooster Teeth: Interviwer asks "what was the decision like to move to 4v4?". [b]Deej: "The crucible has always been a pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline and focus so that its a more WATCHABLE experience. Its something that you can follow as a spectator or learn from as a combatent..... and at the end of a match, even if you got your ass kicked, you are gonna know exactly how that went down.[/b] Really? Is this why the after report now doesn't tell you how many kills you've had, but instead lumps kills and assists together as "defeated"? Oh and that "watchable" bit? That's code word for we're trying super hard to make this an Esport. Deej goes on [b]"... not to say that we want to make it LESS FUN, but we wanted to make it fun in a way that is learnable."[/b] Holy mother of god.... did i hear that right? yup. Enter Laars Baaken in IGN video revealing Control and its changes: while explaining the new Control mechanics [b]....Everything in Destiny 2 has been SIMPLIFIED..... [/b] Really? A simple game has been made more simplified? What the literal fvkc? The interviewer asks a little later "....you had to make sacrifices for smaller team sizes, how do you make those decisions?" [b]Baaken resonds: "it comes down to, not only making it more competitve, but making it more learnable and understandable and team size definately came out of that.... it consiladtes the space down and makes it more understandable for you as a player."[/b] So... where am i going with all of this? If you are wondering why The Darkness has been replaced with Gary, or Control Zones no longer need to be neutralized, or you have 2 primaries in your loadout or time-to-kill has been so drastically increased, or why the subclasses all feel pretty similar and weakened, or many of the other baffling design choices that these developers have made.... go thorough all of these videos, even the ones that i don't mention, and pick out the buzzwords like "ACCESSIBLE" and you will soon realize that all of this stuff is done not with the actual Destiny player in mind.... its done FOR KIDS. Its done for CASUALS. Its done for critics who reviewed the game poorly, its done for that sweet sweet loot.... but not the random god roll type of loot, but for the cold hard cash that Bungievision hopes to make off of this watered down, SIMPLIFIED, easily learn-able dud of a sequel. This game isn't made for Guardians... its made for kids. Its written all over the wall and in between the cracks of their logic. My only solution that i can offer is that THEY DELAY THIS GAME FOR NO LESS THAN 6 MONTHS to redesign the many factors that are alienating the core playerbase, cause its obvious that the PHILOSOPHY isn't a more focused plan, but a plan to try to appeal to all types of gamers, just not the ones that kept the 3 year Beta afloat with constant play and constant feedback. TLDR: When you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making it for NO ONE. One more thought: If you had no intention of shipping the game to play like this, then why did you give us a beta with outdated tuning? I for one, do not buy the answer in the TWAB of "yeah we were gonna change it anyway so, thanks for your feedback but we are ahead of you." Nah bro.... some simple minded folks might be able to accept that answer, but anyone with a little bit of awareness can tell that you are in full force damage control, and doing a terrible job of it. For me.... a dude who put in a stupid amount of hours to D1, this new game is NO BUY, because your Beta reinforced all the things i saw coming from a mile away. The freaking Ghost is now the JAR JAR BINKS of the destiny universe. Have you no shame?
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#feedback

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  • Actions speak louder than words and the changes to the Destiny formula built into the beta show us the Bungie is still struggling to understand players. After 3 years of positive changes to Destiny 1, it might be difficult to remember that Bungie thought the original RNG was rewarding for players. They thought spawning players in Crucible with one-hit kill weapons was a good idea. We all assumed that Bungie learned from those mistakes. We were wrong.

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  • I honestly didn't know what you were complaining about until I was 3/4 the way through. And honestly, it seems like half of what you're angry about is that PvP is 4 vs. 4?

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    2 답변
    • Your post is too long. I skimmed it and found I only read the bits in bold text. I think they're doing a great job. And even though I didn't read your opinion I'm sure we disagree. :D You and I probably have a similar goal though, I hope you have fun playing the game when it releases. -Sketch

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      4 답변
      • Its sad because we're probably not getting larger team battles in crucible til later expansions. If they dont give us 6v6 back or let us indulge in 8v8 that has been thrown around by hopeful players then it shall be very disappointing.

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      • And I thought you roasted mtashed with great aplomb, but this reaches a new level. Fabulous stuff. One of the most telling statements, which you mention in your thread, is Deej and his 'watchable' comment. It is obvious whom they consulted in the making of Destiny 2 and it is without doubt those self serving You Tubers and Streamers who make a very good living leeching of the back of Destiny and the community. I am a poor PvP player but the Crucible is so dumbed down that I am doing a lot lot better in Destiny 2. I argued elsewhere that running round and round team shooting in 4v4 Control takes far less skill than 6v6 Control did in Destiny 1. If you could survive in the hurly burley of Destiny 1 PvPand win then that took skill. If people are team shooting how do they learn learn individual skills, they can't. So you are right, this game is made for everyone including young children minimum skill required. This is all I have time to write right now but if I think of any further points tomorrow I I'll respond then

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        1 답변
        • 작성자: Its_Johnny_Bravo 7/25/2017 9:16:53 PM
          I agree man, its not even the same game. Every sequel out there tries to build on the existing- except destiny, they just screwed it to death.

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          1 답변
          • bump x 1000

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          • So many assumptions and bias driven conclusions in this post. I get some people are unhappy but you can't make conclusions like this. There's no facts at all in this just made up conclusions. You're looking so hard for their to be an answer between their lines that you're actually making stuff up. Is this what it's come to? Has the realization that the core mechanics of D2 are not going to change (much) even with the current flurry of feedback caused people to just make wild accusations and incite more hate for Bungie? Find a better tactic.

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            22 답변
            • Bump to all of this but as you said bungie doesnt care as we are not their target audience. Plus many of the pre-order people are locked in to their purchase because they played the beta early access

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            • The main thing that's driving me away from buying D2 is the gameplay. Weak weapons, weak abilities with absurdly long cooldowns, an underwhelming Attunement system, which would only work if the perks were optimized for the playstyles they're built around, and if we could get more than just 2 Attunements, or the ability to mix and match the perks within the Attunements, and lastly, the sluggish movement and jumps. I don't mind the weapon system, but they need to amp up the weapon damage so it's not just team shooting all the time in Crucible, and slowly chipping away at bullet sponges in PvE. If they're concerned about the TTK, they should try using the old health system from Halo instead. Separate shield and health bars. I would prefer that over this. Watering everything down like this is pure crap. The abilities need a huge overhaul, for the most part. I wouldn't mind the long cooldowns if the abilities were actually lethal. It's laughable that someone thought it was a great idea to makes the abilities weak, [i]and[/i] make them take a long time to charge. Terrible game design. You can't have it both ways. Pick one or the other. You can either have the abilities strong in proportion to their cooldown times, or have them weak, but available more often. It should have never been designed the way it was. As for the Attunements, they need to make some hefty adjustments. A few of them are rather underwhelming, and make the second Attunements look far better by comparison. Namely the first Attunements for Gunslinger, Dawnblade, and Voidwalker. What bothers me most is that weak ass Six-Shooter perk on Gunslinger, and the broken ass Winged Sun perk on Dawnblade. The Six-Shooter perk makes Golden Gun so weak it can't even take out red health enemies in one shot, and the Winged Sun perk, while having the ability to shoot and throw grenades while gliding seems like it would be fun, in actual practice, it's abysmal. Completely impractical. Hitting anything with your gun while gliding is almost impossible. The accuracy and hit detection drop significantly. It makes the perk it's supposed to be paired with, Heat Rises (which grants grenade and melee energy on airborne kills) useless. Also, they should consider extending the Attunements a bit. Add an extra branch of 2 or 3 perks on each one.

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              1 답변
              • BUMP Bungie - Please Read!

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              • Did you just relate efficiency to esports?

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                6 답변
                • Bump

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                • Tldr [b][i]We dumbed it down to make it less intimidating to casuals.[/i][/b]

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                • [i]"We nerfed the hell out of everything so new players don't feel intimidated in PvP."[/i] That's pretty much all I got from this.

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                • This game is like Star Wars: the phantom menace or the Ewoks from part 6. You want to reach all the morons! That's why ghosts and AIs sound like idiotic morons.

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                • [quote]pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline [/quote] Oh lordy! My mom is there for that. Let me have fun while playing a casual FPS game.

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