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7/25/2017 8:38:01 PM
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The Design Philosophy of Destiny 2, and who this game is really for....

[b]"Destiny 2 is a convergence of veteran players, just like you, and new players into our Universe" -Luke Smith, Game Director, at the D2 reveal.[/b] These were the first words spoken by Luke Smith, and the first sign of bad things to come for actual Destiny players. Followed shortly thereafter by [b]"....if you are a competitive player, we've re-thought the Crucible from first principles, we're moving ALL activities in PVP to 4v4, we've rebuilt the sandbox in a bunch of ways, to 'smaller team formats'. We've done this because we want to create a sense of mastery. In order to master anything, you need to be able to understand it."[/b] Feeling insulted yet? Luke Smith didn't think that we understood the principles behind Destiny 1's PvP and that making the maps smaller, with less players and forcing weak primary weapons into our hands somehow made it "easier to understand". Never mind that there were ZERO tutorials in Destiny1 to explain ANYTHING from weapon perks to Crucible strategy to effective counters... we didn't understand it, apparently, even though most of us figured this stuff out without those tutorials. Enter Steve Cotton, the World Lead Designer: [b]".... i have 2 kids, and just like you guys, they play Destiny a lot.... (he goes on to talk about how 1 kid likes lone wolf play and patrolling the wilds, the other likes crucible and raiding with a clan).... The point is, there's a lot to do in Destiny and its this variety that can appeal to all of us", right? in any type of mood that we're in. [/b] Oh boy.... bad sign? Stay with me here.... Cotton goes on after mentioning a few activities: [b]And then there is the Crucible... we've made some big changes.... we're building it for "PvP Players". Its now 4v4 across all game modes (very sparse applause... people seem shell shocked hearing this in the crowd).[/b] He mentions HUD changes that inform you of certain aspects of enemy readiness... then: [b]... to make it an experience thats easy to get into, but its hard to master.[/b] LOL? Team shooting as a mastery technique? LOL again. He waits for applause, people don't know that this is time to applause. Its awkward. [b]So we've got new maps, new modes and we believe this is the best PvP offering that Destiny has ever seen.[/b] After playing this Beta, most of us know that its completely false. He goes on to talk about some actual promising things such as the new activities and the new worlds we will have to explore. Enter M.E Chung, Social lead: after telling us about the positives of the community and how the game has helped us make connections with people across the world, which in my opinion IS the best of what D1 offered, although it was a challenge to break through that barrier in the early goings and find a group to raid with due the lack of in game matchmaking, she goes on to talk about their solutions to that: They have half-fixed that with Guided games, a point that i am neutral to. Then she announces "shared rewards for being in a clan"-----> participation awards for not even having to participate. So your time spent in the game rewards the people that don't have to participate..... wow. I can't even imagine how this is going to go down, as we know that some people don't put the time in to earn rewards. It gives incentives to be in a clan, but not actually participate. Not sure yet if this all that bad, but.... Who is this design for? We're getting there..... Mark Noseworthy then comes on to bridge the gap between Bungie and Activision and introduces the Activision CEO Eric Hirshberg: he pumps up Bungie, then pumps up Sony, ignores xbox (wtf?) and mentions the new PC platform for the game. He intros the Blizzard CEO and he explains the way D2 will be delivered to to PC players..... then the hand-picked crowd of streamers and Youtubers rolls over to go play the Beta of D2. The same build that we just played in the beta, that NONE of them properly assessed before the beta dropped this past week. Still trying to figure out where i am going with this? Sorry, but there's more to address first. Now onto Deej... our impenetrable source of sweaty upper-lip-service in an E3 interview with Rooster Teeth: Interviwer asks "what was the decision like to move to 4v4?". [b]Deej: "The crucible has always been a pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline and focus so that its a more WATCHABLE experience. Its something that you can follow as a spectator or learn from as a combatent..... and at the end of a match, even if you got your ass kicked, you are gonna know exactly how that went down.[/b] Really? Is this why the after report now doesn't tell you how many kills you've had, but instead lumps kills and assists together as "defeated"? Oh and that "watchable" bit? That's code word for we're trying super hard to make this an Esport. Deej goes on [b]"... not to say that we want to make it LESS FUN, but we wanted to make it fun in a way that is learnable."[/b] Holy mother of god.... did i hear that right? yup. Enter Laars Baaken in IGN video revealing Control and its changes: while explaining the new Control mechanics [b]....Everything in Destiny 2 has been SIMPLIFIED..... [/b] Really? A simple game has been made more simplified? What the literal fvkc? The interviewer asks a little later "....you had to make sacrifices for smaller team sizes, how do you make those decisions?" [b]Baaken resonds: "it comes down to, not only making it more competitve, but making it more learnable and understandable and team size definately came out of that.... it consiladtes the space down and makes it more understandable for you as a player."[/b] So... where am i going with all of this? If you are wondering why The Darkness has been replaced with Gary, or Control Zones no longer need to be neutralized, or you have 2 primaries in your loadout or time-to-kill has been so drastically increased, or why the subclasses all feel pretty similar and weakened, or many of the other baffling design choices that these developers have made.... go thorough all of these videos, even the ones that i don't mention, and pick out the buzzwords like "ACCESSIBLE" and you will soon realize that all of this stuff is done not with the actual Destiny player in mind.... its done FOR KIDS. Its done for CASUALS. Its done for critics who reviewed the game poorly, its done for that sweet sweet loot.... but not the random god roll type of loot, but for the cold hard cash that Bungievision hopes to make off of this watered down, SIMPLIFIED, easily learn-able dud of a sequel. This game isn't made for Guardians... its made for kids. Its written all over the wall and in between the cracks of their logic. My only solution that i can offer is that THEY DELAY THIS GAME FOR NO LESS THAN 6 MONTHS to redesign the many factors that are alienating the core playerbase, cause its obvious that the PHILOSOPHY isn't a more focused plan, but a plan to try to appeal to all types of gamers, just not the ones that kept the 3 year Beta afloat with constant play and constant feedback. TLDR: When you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making it for NO ONE. One more thought: If you had no intention of shipping the game to play like this, then why did you give us a beta with outdated tuning? I for one, do not buy the answer in the TWAB of "yeah we were gonna change it anyway so, thanks for your feedback but we are ahead of you." Nah bro.... some simple minded folks might be able to accept that answer, but anyone with a little bit of awareness can tell that you are in full force damage control, and doing a terrible job of it. For me.... a dude who put in a stupid amount of hours to D1, this new game is NO BUY, because your Beta reinforced all the things i saw coming from a mile away. The freaking Ghost is now the JAR JAR BINKS of the destiny universe. Have you no shame?
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#feedback

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  • 작성자: Lordsa Jar-Jar 8/1/2017 3:41:52 AM
    Agreed. Fortunately your opinion is shared widely and is already corresponding with the low pre-order sales they've gotten so far when compared to D1. Hopefully they will finally understand what they need to do for D3, if there is a D3 after this. Reposted this on #Destiny, giving you full credit of course.

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  • Wrong. It was made for PvP players that suck and whine alot.

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    • Your theory confirmed Fidget Spinner as a pre order bonus from Game Stop

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    • Can I just make a point? Destiny 1 was a chaotic mess, of one hit kills, too many players on tiny maps or too few on enormous ones, and noone can argue against that. It wasn't competitive, it was sloppy in almost every for, of execution. The changes in Destiny 2 don't just make it simpler, it makes it CLEANER. It brings order to the chaos. Instead of style points awarding imbalanced points for kills, we have a straight one kill = one point system in Control and Skirmish. Instead of killtimes so fast its more a matter of happening to spot the other player first, it becomes more of a contest, one that can be turned around AFTER the first shot is fired and offers more room for error. Instead of not being able to tell what the hell is going on between all the nades, shotguns, and supers, you can actually assess the information before you and plan accordingly. The best Destiny 1 players weren't tactical, were rarely accurate, and didn't focus on teamwork. They played into the chaos, spammed the shortest killtimes in the game, and rushed around. Their "skill" mostly boiled down to reflex, not conscious action. Playig Destiny 2 well requires CRITICAL THINKING, TEAM SETUPS, and MAP CONTROL.Three terms barely, if ever brought up as skills in D1. That's the best thing they could have done. The reason people didn't enjoy D1's crucible was exactly what's being fixed here. It wasn't because player's weren't skilled enough, it's because for competitive players of other shooter franchises, such as Halo, Quake, and UT, Destiny was a mess, and kind of a joke.

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      72 답변
      • Bump!

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      • Lol

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      • [i]Changes have been made I know. This is just my recollection of my time in the beta[/i] [u][b]Homecoming[/b][/u] Great cinematics. Overall better graphics. The weapon system change and subclass changes were not what I wanted. With that said I had fun having range options and didn't think our primary weapons were far off from the ideal damage. Grenade damage was low. Loved being in the fight with the vanguard. Hope to see more NPC interaction in the campaign. Excited to play thru this story. [b][u]Inverted Spire[/u][/b] (Most issues already resolved)This is where the issues with pve became much more apparent. The damage is obviously a bit under where it should be especially on the strike boss. Cooldowns need to come down a bit. (one idea I had was making orbs give significantly more super energy to really push teamwork). The level had a few to many empty areas(this wouldn't have been an issue if I had my Sparrow) the boss fight could have had another basic area damage effect to keep the fight hectic. [i]Boss vitality and power ammo issues already addressed in TWAB[/i] [b][u]Crucible[/u][/b] I really enjoyed the changes. The TTK is better suited for teamplay and less OHK options made the experience entertaining. [b][u]Miscellaneous[/u][/b] [i]Why did we start Homecoming with the new subclass?[/i] Hopefully just for the beta [i]Did Cayde blink away in Homecoming?[/i] [u]Heavys[/u] Shotguns a bit weak Scouts need larger clip Fusions needs less GG six shooter timer needs small increase Energy weapon shield break stun/AoE rules

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      • 작성자: Hoops 7/29/2017 10:37:50 PM
        Woah...

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      • 작성자: TheShadow-cali 7/27/2017 5:53:25 AM
        Curious about something. When D2 is released from what I understand IB and Trials will be Removed creating a paywall. What's funny is some gamers said Bungie made a "mistake" back when Ttk was released and said they have learned from that. Before Ttk was released Bungie nerfed y1 and capped them at 170. Right after Ttk was released is when I found out Bungie removed content from y1, leaving gamers that didn't buy Ttk stuck with with what they did. I'm sure a lot of gamers were happy about that. So, when D2 is released with 2 main events gamers like playing in D1 being removed. What else is this company going to remove as far as content goes to try to get gamers to buy D2? I for one think it's a cheap move knowing gamers payed for that content and they will be on separate servers from D2 far as I know.

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      • [quote]These were the first words spoken by Luke Smith, and the first sign of bad things to come for actual Destiny players.[/quote] While I'm a fan of certain things which have been fixed from D1 and not liking what I am seeing being limited to things like crucible, ect..... being a negative nancy with statements like that is something I disagree with. No one wants to listen to people make your statements OP. Being negative and putting things up like that is something from mid 20's to low 10's age groups and none of it is helping an argument besides sounding childish. To put the question more bluntly: What would have been a more positive message for them to have said? Why is it you and other negative nancies specifically target people simply explaining their motivations behind things? Did you fail to learn that any and all skeptics out there is everyone and no one? How? Because absolutely no one wants to hear negative statements all the time. Do you? [quote]Feeling insulted yet? Luke Smith didn't think that we understood the principles behind Destiny 1's PvP and that making the maps smaller, with less players and forcing weak primary weapons into our hands somehow made it "easier to understand".[/quote] You feel insulted by that? I would tell you man to man not to be so dramatic or emotional about this. Sooner or later you will understand that things like this is about a lot of factors like: Why do other games create a sense of mastery in the first place? Why do other multiplayer games make it so there is similar applications for it's players across the board? Why do player outreach programs specifically say they don't like player against player because of the complexity of knowing which guns to use and lack of variety or ANY reason out there? When you get older, you will understand these are called social experiments. They are experiments because you, others, and I have not tried them out yet. We have not been made accustomed to them yet. And yes, you learn to accept that it is an entire multiplayer framework at play which they do NOT have the time to overhaul and redo from scratch. You need to be clear about the activities you want, unchanged, and you better hope it is popular enough to be noticed because that is the issue at hand. They had 1, 2, or 3 years to build Destiny 2 and we got what we got now. [quote]Oh boy.... bad sign? Stay with me here....[/quote] There's nothing wrong with explaining one kid plays certain activities and another plays other activities. [quote]LOL? Team shooting as a mastery technique? LOL again. He waits for applause, people don't know that this is time to applause. Its awkward.[/quote] Chuckling at you right now. Your in for a rude awakening later in life kiddo. Very rude and you will probably get very emotional about it considering your lack of maturity in all this. Lesson to learn for you: Never attack someone online for something they say on a video when it comes fro a developer, explaining what is going on, and why they did things. Why? Because the consequences of your actions will lead to worse actions down the road. Every time you do it. The "idea" behind professionalism is the adult who works? Needs it all the time. It's never switched off. If you swing for someone, your the guilty party and certain people will simply shrug you off as the 10 year old you sound like... or be like me and grin at you because your anything, but noteworthy. Eventually? You'll be written up as part of "that troll group" wherein people wish you never had the right to voice your concerns because you yourself are not worth the expenditure. Again, do not run this course. It has never, and will never, end well for those who are looking for answers, get said answers, and then see childish remarks specifically targeting individuals solely because you found a statement funny and wanted to use that to call question to someone's integrity. Sorry, but that is another hallmark of those who should ideally stay silenced. [quote]After playing this Beta, most of us know that its completely false.[/quote] That's your opinion. I'm no negative nancy, but I found positive things I liked and negative things I didn't like in the beta. Which is why my pre-order, same as most pre-orders, are still there and probably got more newcomers to pre-order. [quote]Still trying to figure out where i am going with this? Sorry, but there's more to address first.[/quote] It's very simple kiddo: Your whining about things you don't like (ok, fair enough). You are also being a negative nancy. And you are saying you don't respect people while being overly dramatic about it. Sorry for you only because after this little rant of yours you will probably be muted for failing to be respectful. [quote]Oh and that "watchable" bit? That's code word for we're trying super hard to make this an Esport[/quote] And what is so wrong with an eSport? Since you want to make a game more competitive, would you not want to do that? Or would you rather have 20 or so ability cooldowns like WoW does and force raids/PvP to become a massive WTF killed me zone? [quote]Holy mother of god.... did i hear that right? yup.[/quote] *see overly dramatic comment above* [quote]its done FOR KIDS. Its done for CASUALS[/quote] Competitive shooters in the early 2000's and the later 90's know this formula really well kiddo: Simplicity is what keeps a game going. Complexity is what kills it. Good luck figuring out what it means to be casual from competitive or when you are a combination of both.

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        15 답변
        • I’m currently on the fence about D2 and am one of the many veteran players whom have pre-ordered the game with a due sense of hopeful anticipation and dread. I tried to keep an open mind regarding the beta and knew there were going to be teething problems with the gameplay, but I actually enjoyed it and even playing as the completely redundant Hunter…usually my main is a Titan on D1. As far as I’m concerned I’ll continue to play D2 until my clan votes that it’s no longer a game worth our time, or money…cuz no matter how bad D1 was and D2 may very well be, the game wasn’t the reason why I’d log on every evening and play for hours at a time…it was down to experiencing the game with my clan mates. I agree with everything you said, and again feel every time Luke Smith opens his mouth he really doesn’t believe himself what he’s trying to convince the majority of the fan base. This is Bungie’s last chance for me, and for most of my friends list and would imagine that echoes across the entire player base…If Bungie don’t deliver on D2 then many loyal players will be finding new games to invest in…I for one will be making the jump to ANTHEM the moment it’s available, no matter what’s said about the game (good or bad)…I can still play online with friends and it couldn’t be any worse than what Bungie has provided.

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        • 작성자: Skipper1175 7/26/2017 11:10:31 PM
          Deej: "The crucible has always been a pretty chaotic environment with these 6v6 engagements.... we wanted to create a stronger sense of discipline and focus so that its a more WATCHABLE experience. They probably did it for some kind of E-Sports show coming to ESPN... Which is kind of like making a game to just make max money instead of creating something meaningful. I wish the game was deeper and less arcade kid gayness... I wish I had money to design a Destiny version that was deeper, more RPG and more MMO... If anyone out there can do it, I'll invest in it!

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        • Destiny 2 is hardly competitive or even built to be that way. If so it wouldn't be a pathetic 30fps on P2P connections. It's a game built for casual players.

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        • 작성자: Stealth101010 7/26/2017 8:26:55 PM
          I want to know something about D1 was it really that complicated to play??? Seems all these......let's call them choices are centered around " well the players didn't know what to do the first time for 3 years so we need to simplify everything." The devs came to an understanding that we have problems playing their game???? So they changed it with some drastic choices???? I can't help but wonder who was the q/a and the focus group for Destiny 2 if those existed at all. Why must we play this game the way they want???? Can one person working on Destiny 2 answer that??? This seems very similar to the whole Joseph Staten issue where the story he wrote was gutted and gave us a non existent story.

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          2 답변
          • No, they have no shame, no loyalty to hardcore paying fans, and no video game development common sense.

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          • Well said and spot on. Bungie is in frantic damage control mode after that Beta. The sad thing? They not only looked at that build and thought "Nailed it!", but they're having to run damage control for a game that is still a month away from releasing due to the shit-tier method they used to nerf PvE into a boring, weak, slow "experience".

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          • The truth is that the Beta was the current launch version (maybe a few uodates behind). Typically a Beta build is a portion of the finished game. Meant to be played to test for glitches, stress test servers, & etc. If Bungie literally sent us a build that is months old. Then they need to fire whomever made that call. I have Beta Tested ALOT. So I know Bungie is blowing hot air. Yes...it is true the Beta is not a "present day version. But it is damn close.

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            • Where's Malphisto?

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              1 답변
              • You nailed it on every level. Spot on assessment of where D2 is headed based off of what's been said by the Devs. I agree that D2 should be delayed and re-thought. My vision of what made Destiny unique and ultimately fun to play despite the issues has been nerfed into oblivion based off of the beta gameplay.

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              • What your seeing is Bungie's new market strategy. Piss off / chase away as many of the veteran players as possible, so when all the new, propaganda believing players buy the game, they will have no idea how bad Bungie screwed up Destiny 2!! It's brilliant, they should give the marketing department a huge raise for coming up with such a devious plan.

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                • Nothing in D2 is more accessible or learnable. Nothing. I seriously don't know what to say. Was D1 really that hard to "learn"? Maybe for the devs. Because it is really -blam!-ing concerning when they are live streaming, and the devs have to take a full second between each TLW shot, the other is running face first into a wall, another can't find a big tree on bannerfall, and the other consistently misses melee attacks. I'm still very confused at what was so "chaotic" about 6v6. In fact, I feel that this "4v4 small team tactics" nonsense just made their problem even worse. What's chaotic about 4v4 is a team that runs all around the map not anywhere near each other, just to get picked off 1 by 1. Not to mention, there shouldn't be a problem with that if that's what they want to do, as long as there's a somewhat decent element of team support. There's literally no self sustainment in D2. D1 allowed some flexibility between how 2v1s and so on would turn out by granting players higher fire power. As in abilites, including grenades. So no, 6v6 is not chaotic. 4v4 is so bad it almost feels luck based, on who wins and loses.

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                  • I agree with everyone who says the game should be delayed, but it will never happen. Destiny 2 cost Activision a lot of money to make and they will want their profit on schedule. No matter how we feel about it D2 won't get delayed unless there are several game breaking bugs. And unfortunately a watered down gaming experience doesn't count.

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                    • I agree totally they went back to zero with the destiny universe back to square one and this is what we get. Lazy vision lacking bungie I've learned one thing from bungie it's that they ruin sequels how can they do 3 years of in game testing and development and still. It know what us guardians want and expect from bungie, but since day 1 they have been constantly nerfing everything that made this game fun

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                    • Bungievision are casting the largest net they can for the biggest payday they can get. This is also the biggest problem with Destiny as it really does confuse what exactly Destiny is supposed to be. There is not enough content, customization, unique builds and OP powers the mmo fans are accustomed to having. Then there are to many options, different builds and OP abilities that competitive shooter fans think break the game. The story and commentary from our ghost is 100% geared for a young audience but then Bungie will try and sell this epic story. What we are going to end up with is a game that attempts to be a jack of all trades but master of nothing. Once again people will be disappointed because they will feel that they didn't get the game they were sold on.

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                    • Bottom line upfront, D2B was very disappointing. There was compounding issues that makes the game unenjoyable to the point that I don't want to play the game in its entirety. Most of those points were covered in your post, suck as weapon loadouts strategy, slower cooldown rates, increased TTK, extremely SLOW gameplay, ineffective grenade strength and supers, and weak graphics. Overall, the gameplay was extremely slow. Movement did not feel crisp. It was like I was moving in slow motion. Besides all the error codes (that's another post in itself), gameplay - both PVP and PVE - was entirely too slow. Basically, it felt like I was playing a generic first person shooter game. Very disappointing. Secondly, the cooldown rates were almost nonexistent. Even when they built up, I wasn't impressed with the effectiveness of the grenades ( or Super concerning the Warlock' s nova bomb. Bungie really jacked that up!!) The increased TTK was observed. Not a fan at all. In PVE, it took entirely too long to down all the adds. In PVP, gameplay seemed like off. Again, not impressed. Finally, the graphics were fairly weak and unpleasant to look at. I've been a fan of Bungie since Halo 1 and followed them up til now. In my opinion, they have normally produced very great work. However, I feel that they are taking their fan base for granted on this one. Bungie has morphed Destiny 2 into something that I'm not looking forward to playing. I spent time grinding out on D1 in order to get certsin gear or wrapons. That is what made it fun for me. Now, I understand it's the Beta for D2, so I truly hope that they make drastic improvements with the overall gameplay. If not, I see a distinct drop in their fan base.

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                      • 작성자: Crota bin Oryx 7/26/2017 6:49:23 AM
                        Bungie fanboys and apologists will eat you alive... You have been warned! Just realized that the whole post makes equal sense if you replace 'kids' with 'streamers' or 'youtubers'. ✌

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