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7/20/2017 3:10:00 PM
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Destiny has always been half and half. Hell, even vanilla exotic quests required PVP to earn them.
Not sure what crack you're smoking if you think it's a "new" trend in this game to be split evenly between PVP and PVE focus. It has ALWAYS been a mix of the two.
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작성자: TheRealEraser 7/21/2017 1:00:11 AMhttp://www.pcgamer.com/the-5-biggest-unanswered-questions-about-destiny-2/ as this show with the pie chart a little down, PvE makes up most of the pie and is what kept destiny 1 going. Most people playing want PvE to be fun and have lots to do, PvP was more of a tacked on part based on how unbalanced it was/is. Destiny 2 seams to be more focused on PvP balance with what bungie say alot of PvE content. However PvE content wont matter if it's not fun anymore due to balancing the game for PvP with slow supers and no heavy ammo and all this is without talking about changing weapons to having 2 primary's which takes out so much fun of using different weapons build for different situations.
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Thanks for sharing that link. It does help better illustrate how there are far MORE activities PVE related and by virtue more time spent in said activities. I think a lot of that fails to address how many people play the PVE so they can obtain things to use in PVP though. As a day 1 player (like many of us are) I think it's hard to forget how impactful things like the Suros Regime and Vex Mythoclast were in PVP in the early days. People literally did the Atheon raid with the main objective of "I want to use Vex in the crucible". After the long back and forth with @BIMPtacular, I moreso see his point now on "centric/core" elements of the game being PVE. I'm also admittedly more of a PVE guy myself, as I enjoy cooping with friends on the strikes and raids. This doesn't change the fact the developers want focus on both though, and that the game is NOT designed to accomodate PVE > PVP. We'll have to see how things pan out, but I don't feel they are favoring PVP over PVE. If you read the weekly updates you can see they acknowledge heavy ammo needs some tweaking, they even state they felt the same on their early playtests but wanted feedback from the community. They also stated that weapon damage as it applies to non-player combatants will be changing at full release. Cooldowns in general are going to be tweaked. As I initially expected, mods are likely to alter how armor perks play out, which will also have an impact on supers/cooldowns. Long story short, most of the "it's all about PVP nowwwww" is mostly just Chicken Little Sky is Falling logic that fails to acknowledge how PVE is part of the developer's thoughts as much as PVP.
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I understood, and it's the same argument people have made before. You want a SEPARATE game for each mode basically (you'll claim just balanced differently, but really such are the same). Also, when you state literally that D1 was "built around PVE coop" it's a flat out misunderstanding of how D1 was designed. It was NEVER designed to ONLY be a coop pve game.
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The original concept for the game was to build a unique PvE experience. If they had focused on both modes equally they would not have had the same issues they did. This time they have started with PvP balance from r the basic weapon structure. To be clear I am not saying this is good or bad just stating what it is.
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Nope, the original concept (as portrayed numerous times in their advertising) was about your guardian's adventure, and that your guardian could do everything. The SAME guardian, as it was YOURS, and not just the protagonist to a story. It was for you to become a legend in ALL of Destiny. Your argument is flawed if it attempts to use the foundation of this game being at its core primarily about PVE and PVP is just an "add-on".
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Well, for one the biggest tagline of the marketing material being "Become Legend" and discussing how becoming a legend would allow/require you to take your hero through all the activities, including the Crucible. To get certain gear, you needed to do the crucible. To finish certain achievements, you needed to do the crucible. Quite a few of the vanilla exotic quests (for those that remember actually questing for them) you needed to perform tasks within PVE AND PVP. The biggest "duh" for this all is that they continuously advised you in marketing (and game mechanics) that your character was persistent in both pve and pvp. When games create separated PVP and PVE (or focus on PVE with a PVP addon) they create a separate pool of characters for the PVP modes that have set skills/gear/abilities. See: Last of Us Metal Gear The Phantom Pain GTA5 Online Battlefield Mass Effect 3 and Andromeda Doom Halo Quake I could continue btw...but I won't, as the point has been made very clearly that when a game wants to separate PVE from PVP they create the mechanics separately and are not persistent gamer to character relationships.
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How did you become legend? Maybe by killing time manipulating Vex, Hive gods, and nano-tech enhanced Fallen? What is in literally every piece of marketing material for Destiny? Hmm... The Traveler? Which PVP mode is the Traveler in? What was your light level used for again? Where you said "To finish certain achievements", where did you start those quest lines? I never said PVP wasn't in the game, but it's not the main reason people got intereseted in Destiny as proven by playtime stats. Desitny was objectively marketed and sold as primarily a PVE game.
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Now you're shifting goal posts... I addressed your question and provided far more than enough evidence to suggest the game was NOT intended to be primarily PVE. The rest of what you say is just subjective opinion on what YOU think is the main draw of the game. I'll agree to disagree, but that's about all.
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No goal posts were shifted and I kept the conversation very pointed. It's understandable if you don't like what I say, but you can't directly point to any fault in the logic. Which is why you went with the straw man of me "shifting the goal post" and my "subjective opinion". The only objective fact that shows that people have spent more time playing PVE than PVP you chose to ignore.
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작성자: munkt0r 7/20/2017 8:32:43 PMOk, saying goal posts were shifted is NOT a strawman. A strawman is saying you're making an argument you didn't. Initially you asked me to advise what marketing or mechanics suggested it was intended to be both PVP and PVE. I provided such. Then you began to go into, "yea, but what does becoming legend mean" which is all subjective and no longer an objective conversation about the marketing and mechanics. I.E. shifted the goal posts for me to prove your opinions incorrect and not just discuss mechanics and marketing. You didn't even bother to address the most definitive rationale of ZERO separation between pvp and pve activities as it applies to your character, their progression, their gear, their abilities. Can you show me a primarily PVE game that doesn't create a stark separation between PVE and PVP? Also, the time consideration is a silly argument when you can't present that data. 12 people (in D1) playing for 1 hour is 12 hours of gameplay. Do that across all PVP content for the entire life cycle of the game against all PVE content and i'd be surprised if you didn't have a near even split. If Bungie has provided this data, i'd like to see it.
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By your own words, "A strawman is saying you're making an argument you didn't." My original argument to you was "Destiny 1 at it's core was a PVE centric game. PVE is what kept it going for 3 years and how they "refreshed" it and sold DLC. It was a PVE game." How was saying that I "moved the goal post" not a straw man? I literally stuck to my exact original statements and provided supporting arguments. You may not like what I said, but I didn't change anything in my argument. You haven't said why the sharing of game mechanics between PVE and PVP means that PVP cannot logically be an add-on. You're starting with a clear bias and have no objective supporting statements. Making blanket statements and trying generalize my argument away doesn't make yours more valid. I'm not going to make your argument for you.
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Because you initially made your argument on how I could believe otherwise. I did so, and then you began discussing the merit of what "becoming legend" means (in a subjective manner) which is no longer the case. Not starting with a bias, as i'm primarily a PVE player...if anything - my bias would lean that way...right? I'm objective here because I play A LOT of games and the clear cut trend of the game being primarily PVE or PVP is most often the separation created. If a game is created for your hero to move SEAMLESSLY through both, it's pretty obvious the developers intended there to be as much focus on either. Not to mention, when the marketing constantly tells you "You can do either with the same character, take your guardian anywhere" it's also clear to a rational and logical person that they don't want to alienate either and want people to be able to choose for themselves. Again, even focus. I then went on to show how exotic quests were originally designed for people that could do well in both, not just 1. Did you ever do any of the original exotic quests? I don't need you to make my argument, because again - i've made it VERY clear and have asked you straightforward questions that you clearly refuse to answer and instead choose to focus on another angle, which btw is how you shift the goal posts. You asked me to make a shot, I sunk it. Too bad it doesn't count anymore =)
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작성자: BIMPtacular 7/20/2017 9:04:07 PMLol, you brought up "becoming legend" first! I get it, you're super amazing and play a lot of games. Your argument must be worth more than mine, because... you. Saying the game is PVE centric doesn't mean that it can't have PVP that functions seamlessly. That would be an absurd argument to make. Here are a couple questions I would like to pose that I think illustrate my point. - What is the first thing you are forced to do in Destiny after creating a character? (Hint : it's not to play a PVP match) - What is the [u]focus[/u] of ALL DLC that Bungie has sold? - How many PVP [u]centric[/u] expansions have there been? - Could Destiny thrive without PVE? - Could Destiny thrive without PVP? I mean, for the love of the Traveler... They just recently added custom games to PVP and now they're taking them away with D2. Not to mention, most of the really interesting PVP content is time-gated. Trials and Iron Banner can't even be played most of the time.
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작성자: munkt0r 7/20/2017 9:11:26 PMNever claimed my opinion is worth more than yours...that would be an actual strawman. You're learning =) I made reference to my gaming experience as a means to again further support how it's clear that games with a PVE focus and only an add-on PVP experience always SEPARATE the two. Games that want a focus to be on both allow for seamless movement between the two activities with the same hero. - First thing is a solo mission, the "prologue". I can't refute that...but, I don't feel it supports your argument as there's no narrative to support PVP at that point in time with the game...you need to understand the world of Destiny for the PVP component to work. - No PVP centric expansions specifically as the PVP is part of the game as a seamless experience. Every expansion has had PVP content ship with the PVE content in essence via maps, weapons, even some new modes and features. If you can have a PVE centric game where PVP always works seamlessly...why can't you provide examples of it other than Destiny? (I want to add you finally make a good point here with your last two bullet points) Yes Destiny could thrive without PVP, but not without PVE. I think that's a solid point in general. My counter to it is simple: That wasn't the approach they went with, they chose to make a game where you can seamlessly move between PVE and PVP with the same hero, abilities, weapons, and experience. I.E. the focus is even. But I will admit, it's a good point in general that the game could thrive without PVP. *EDIT* I think the best point is this: Why do so many people want the two modes to be balanced separately??
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Let's keep this going... First off... "Never claimed my opinion is worth more than yours...that would be an actual strawman. You're learning =)" You've yet to teach me anything, but I'm hoping we can fix that. Don't give up! :) Second, I don't care what other games do. They mean less than nothing in this discussion, and you are about to prove my point. Thanks BTW. From your reply "you need to understand the world of Destiny for the PVP component to work". I agree completely, and this is the point I'm trying to make. PVP doesn't have any meaning without the weight of the PVE side of the game. On the other hand, PVE works just fine without PVP. Destiny is a PVE [b]centric [/b]game. Everything revolves around the story. It is the primary reason that people play. I'm not sure if you don't understand what I mean when I say words like centric, primary, and focus. They aren't meant to imply that PVP doesn't exist or isn't integrated into the game. Just that PVP is not at the center of Destiny. That is the only point I've been trying to make this whole time.
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작성자: munkt0r 7/20/2017 9:34:47 PMTo that point, I agree. In fact, i've already agreed that's your only "real" point. Simply put, the game couldn't survive without the PVE. It wouldn't be Destiny. I can't refute that, and I won't try to. Very early in the conversation you stated this: [i]"PVE is what kept it going for 3 years and how they "refreshed" it and sold DLC. It was a PVE game." [/i] That's what i've been arguing. If the discussion is now the nuance of the words core/centric - then we'll have to start over. But the word "primarily" has a different implication. It implies PVP is an afterthought. That's what i'm arguing, that it's clear the developers think about how PVE affects PVP and vice-versa. If the game were primarily a PVE game they'd just balance for PVE and whatever happened to PVP happens. But that's not how they approach it, now is it? Also, balance passes they've made have knowingly changed how PVE worked...if it was PVE centric game, they'd never do that right? *EDIT* I'd like to add i'm quite enjoying this discussion as usually I just get a bunch of vulgarities and random e-thug logic on this board, so thank you for actually having discourse!
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Don't leave out the first sentence of that quote, it is important to my argument and adds context to what I was saying. "Destiny 1 at it's [b]core[/b] was a PVE [b]centric[/b] game." I think now this debate is getting too deep into semantics and I'm satisfied with how my point has been articulated for the time being. Always happy to have a civil discussion. :)
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Promise, wasn't trying to cover your point by omitting the first sentence. I felt what I quoted was the imperative portion. I agree on semantics, but I think part of the discussion itself WAS semantics in general. Core/Centric/Primarily etc. End of the day, I don't think you're "wrong" for your view of it. I just think there's an equally compelling argument the other direction with the devs truly focusing on both. Thanks again for the chat.
