There is a huge issue with perception VS reality within the Destiny community. This is perpetuated on two fronts, the lack luster and often times confusing communication and nerfs to classes on bungies side, and on a psychological level. See your favorite YouTube/ Streamer bitch about something in Destiny, the assumption is they must know what they are talking about, so then you become hypersensitive to it, you notice it more. Something that wasn’t a problem now becomes a problem, add a dash of snowball effect and mob mentality and boom things that don’t really need nerfed get nerfed. After all Bungie has admitted to changing things, not because the numbers said it was broken, but because the flawed perception of the community said it was broken.
We’ll talk about subclasses in a moment, but let me give you an example of this in action. Snipers are a problem in PvP, secondary’s in general are an issue, but let’s talk Snipers because they just got hit in an odd and confusing way.
[quote]“Reduced damage on the mid-high impact (1000-Yard Stare family) of Sniper Rifles by 6.95%
Mid High impact snipers can no longer reliably kill high armor guardians in super
No Land Beyond is not affected by this damage reduction
Reduced Target Acquisition for LDR 5001/Y-09 Longbow Synthesis to bring in line with other snipers in the same family”
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I agree with the Flinch, I’m from Halo and think Snipers and only Snipers should have de-scope, making things like snap shot even more invaluable. I also think Hidden Hand should be remove entirely.
What I don’t agree with is instead of addressing the reality which is the Aim Assistance and Target Acquisition of the entire 1000 Yard class and bring it in line with something like; Efrideet's Spear (10AA), they (Bungie) addressed the perception, that being people only used that class of sniper because it can, theoretically, if you are lucky, shutdown supers; something that isn’t an issue. Instead of addressing the crutch, the Aim Assistance, they addressed the skill, super sniping.
This nerf has the knock-on effect of decreasing the 1000 yard class’ DPS in PvE and we are seeing now that you can’t do things like the snipe the Knights during the Totems in Kings fall.
If we look at the data provided by Destiny Tracker ([url]http://destinytracker.com/destiny/population[/url]) we get the reality of how the subclasses actually play:
[quote]Avg SubClass K/d (PVP)
Gunslinger: .99
Blade Dancer: .97
Night Stalker: 1.08
Void Walker: .95
Storm Caller: 1.04
SunSinger: .95
Striker: .95
Sunbreaker: 1.02
Defender: .94
[/quote]
We can compare this to the top 10 ELO players ([url]http://destinytracker.com/destiny/elo-leaderboards[/url])
[quote]Out of all 10:
0 have most time played as Titans.
8 have most time played as Hunters
And 2 have most time played as Warlocks.
And only 2 are on Xbox (not that it matters just a fun fact.) [/quote]
These numbers coincide with large peak we see Night Stalkers have over the other classes. I’m not calling for a nerf to it, on the contrary I’m calling for a buff to the other classes, to bring them in line with the Night Stalker.
This buff would start with the Titan’s, Statistic speaking the Titan overall is the worst class in the game, that’s just a fact. Their overall kit, lacks the moment to moment fluidity of other classes, and their exotics are fun, but come down to Saint 14 for PvE, and Armamentarium or Twilight Garrison for PvP.
Often when talking about buffs and nerfs to the Titan you see the argument “But Bra… they are the tankest class in the game.”
This is a fundamentally flawed argument, because the best tanks in the game are in fact Warlocks, they have the best armor stat, the best exotics for multiplying that stat, and they also have the best recovery in the game, making them far better tanks then Titans. Also armor makes relatively zero difference in most PvP engagements. A weapon that’s 3 shots to kill, will still be 3 shots to kill vs a Hunter with low armor or a Titan or Warlock with high armor. The only time you notice a difference is in rare outlier situation, DoT or when dealing with the highest impact weapons in class like First Curse or The Messenger, but these are exceptions not rules. These weapons generally don’t see play, because the hypothetical of two taping a low armor target is outweighed by the horrific TTK of the weapon against every other weapon in the game.
So the first thing I would do is un-nerf Striker Titans, Shoulder charge isn't a problem and if it hypothetically becomes one once this artifact is introduced then we can revisit that adjustment when and if it does. However, the excuse given by Bungie for the nerf was, because the Memory of Jolder Artifact and its ability to cancel out the sprint cool-down. The problem is, as a Titan I never noticed the sprint cool-down, because I can skate. Now I will fully admit, this is just my perception, however if a lack luster player like myself doesn't notice the sprint cool-down because of skating I would imagine most other players don’t notice it as well. Now to be fair skating is an exploit, like wave dash, and there is an argument to be made about fixing an exploit. However, as the stats have shown and as developer Jon Weisnewski said in an interview during Crucible Radio Ep. 55 - The Tuning Process part 2 (w/ Jon Weisnewski, Greg Peng, & Grant Mackay) at: 35:35 ([url]https://youtu.be/q4KeKeA2uEY?t=34m57s[/url]) “On of the tradeoff’s (for Titan skating) is you’re playing one of the weaker subclasses in a way... They have a negative win drag, and if you’re taking them (Striker Titan’s) into 3v3 your probably costing your team.”- Jon Weisnewski.
Again I must reiterate for effect that the statistics unequivocally back this sentiment up, plus I would imagen they have statistical information like win/loss drag that we don’t. Your perception might be that the Lighting nade is OP, or that Shoulder Charge is broken and that the “highest” armor class shouldn't be that fast. However the reality states that, your perceived annoyances do not line up with the reality that Titans, are statistically the worse class in the game.
Next I would take a look at the exotics, Titans have a few cute gimmicks, but overall after the nerf to Twilight Garrison, it really does come down to Armamentarium or bust on any competitive level. This fact alone will most likely cause Bungie to nerf it. However let’s try something new, like buffing other things. Now I really don’t have the answer to this question, because this is a more delicate situation, however what needs to happen is the entire kit needs looked at, and things that Titans are missing or lacking, like a good alternative to Lighting Grenade or a ranged melee, should be addressed with exotics, after all isn't that’s the point of exotics?
Theirs’s not much to say about Defenders, that hasn’t already been said, all though the Defender itself tends not to do well in PVP their teams do. That said there is nothing wrong with being the dedicated PvE class.
Sunbreakers neutral game is still a shit show and their super still needs work, only problem is if you buff the super in any meaning full way; we end up with the beginning of Taken king all over again. The Subclass needs rebuilt from scratch, maybe replace things like Fusion nades with Trip-mines (this makes more sense thematically anyways), and add a ranged melee, like Sunsingers scorch. In return tweak the super so that you use more energy, and get less hammers. Unless you’re using sun charge, but take away sun charges ability to throw hammers, but fix the tracking.
Warlocks, are next honestly most of the Warlock classes seem to be in a good place. Arc locks in fact should have their melee looked at, I’m not going to call for an outright nerf however, I think there are more delicate ways to handle things like this, such as increasing the charge time and removing damage buff from, the perk that gives your melee back when you receive a melee.
Sunsingers are another case, I would remove every nerf applied to them in the last update. With the exception of the Viking Funeral change. DOT was a problem in Crucible however with the new artifact it won’t be. No, I wouldn't change this perk because it’s actually a net buff, and gives them more utility in PvE, allowing them to throw a sunspot and weaken enemies causing them to take up to 15% more damage. This give them more utility outside of, guy who comes back from the dead.
Hunters are in a good place, but not great.
First order would be to undo the last batch of nerfs to the Golden Gun subclass. No one was bitching about Trip-mines or throwing knives. The only reason I can see this being a problem is the inclusion of these new artifacts. Currently to get 2 Trip-mines and 2 throwing knifes you must give up an exotic, and a perk. With RoI you need only give up an artifact and your super, which is kind of an easy choice with that kit. If that’s the case you can keep your artifact, Bungie; because in order to balance the artifacts they have made changes to subclasses that feel artificial, and force, almost like a last moment “oh -blam!-’s we broke the game, now we need to nerf shit in order to justify the existence of these relics.”
Nightstalker is in a good place, the only thing I would tweak is the super. You get Golden Gun or tether not both, the compensation for this change would be bringing quiver more in line with Golden gun, with faster more accurate projectiles, I’d also look at making the exotic Graviton Forfeit provide an extra dodge role, and reordering that tree so dodge role isn't the most attractive thing in it, like replacing Keen Scout with Lock Down.
(PART 1/2)
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1 답변I cant believe striker isnt the best kd titan class. It's all i run in trials or any sweaty match. Those lightning grenades with armamentarium are gold. Also FoH is amazing for shutting down any super.
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1 답변작성자: USMCRUNNER0411 9/14/2016 8:01:45 AMI'm sure you mean well and I appreciate the time and effort you put into your post. However...Those "stats" prove absolutely NOTHING whatsoever. Talented players do well in spite of being at a disadvantage and people with little talent do poorly despite having an advantage. This makes the "stats" you posted meaningless. You can't honestly and accurately access class weakness / strengths of each class without knowledge of A LOT more information. You need to factor in the % of people playing each class for example. Not only this but you would need to know the talent level of those playing each class. Not likely going to ever know this but it is regardless a very important factor here. Most people play Hunters from what I gather. With more people you often end up with more "talent". The type of talent that drives up stats such as "K/D" This in effect will artificially drive up "stats" making it appear a class is "OP" when the reality couldn't be farther from the truth. The "stats" you listed in no way somehow prove that such and such class is "in a good place" or otherwise. It's simply not this simple mate. Everybody wants a simple / easy solution so looking at the "stats" may at first seem "logical".. The reality however is MUCH more complex. BUNGIE I think unfortunately falls for this very same trap looking for a quick / easy "fix"... I think the results often speak for themselves.. Really the only way to make PVP "fair" is to make it where everybody is competing with the exact same weapons, abilities and supers. In the meantime the current state of play will remain this never ending quest to achieve "balance" (never going to happen) Nothing wrong with this but anybody thinking that Destiny PVP is "fair" or ever will be is fooling themselves. I personally play because it is FUN. The same sort of absurd randomness and imbalances that make this game utterly a joke in terms of "fairness" actually make the game more fun to play in my opinion. Frustrating at times YES but overall fun for the most part. Lastly, you do however make some good points on the class abilities, etc so I'm not trying to say your entire post is crap or anything.
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4 답변To be honest, people in general, competitive and non-competitive, should shut up about nerfs and buffs and just make do with what you got dealt and move on. I swear I play striker and I'm damn good. I play gunslinger and I'm damn good. Warlock, I'm not even gonna say I'm good I know I am. Just get over trying to nerf and buff and just play the game. #makedestinygreatagain2016
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3 답변You are so right. Even so, hunters will never be happy. They always complain and get what they want.
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12 답변작성자: Project Zero 9/13/2016 11:13:54 AMWhat I don't get is why don't the developers at Bungie do the opposite?! Instead of nerfing everything to the ground, why not buff everything else so players can actually counter most of these so-called "op perks/abilities"?! This would allow the better players to prevail.
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5 답변작성자: VitoRyu 9/13/2016 6:00:11 AMI think what OP is trying to say, and what Achilles is getting towards but not quite hitting, is the EASE of the toolkit to use. On paper, Titans are OP, and a creative Titan can wreck shop. HOWEVER, the statistics, and the "bad players play Titan" consensus that seems to be in the comments seems to indicate a lack of EASE in the toolkit. Most Warlocks are point and click. Sunsingers have overshield melee, sticky grenades, armor boost super and if need be, revive. Since we're working with anecdotes how often does a Sunsinger team rez in ToO, and eliminate everyone from the respawn screen? That's not even getting into Ticklefingers, who have the longest melee range in the game, baring Throwing Knife and only if the Hunter has Buddha on his side. Plus Landfall, which can either be spec'd or gotten from Impossible Machines, give them a FREE Titan Slam PLUS their state super. But tell me how Shoulder Charge is OP. Not even bringing in the cyclonic overwhelming of their own grenades and charge melees. Hell, they might as well not HAVE charge times with some of the builds floating around. Voidwalkers don't have much in the way of tricks outside Axion Bolt and Energy Drain. Moving to Hunters, they all had something before the last patch tried to neuter Gunslinger, who was already a terrible PVE class, on paper. GG didn't do nearly enough damage to bosses, and got ~3 kills on mooks. Add in the Trip Mine nerf , and it's a bad day to be a Gunslinger. Arcbladers, on the other hand, get increased damage resistance in super, a wave attack (or AoE), invisibility, blink strike/shotgun, and extended super on kill. Not all at the same time, but we're talking toolkits. Then there's Nightstalker. Tether shutting down supers AND slowing targets already makes it better than Suppressor grenade. Add in the three shots, and it even makes Golden Gun obsolete as it can potentially get a kill for each arrow. Smoke Bomb is another debuff that slows Guardians, and makes it harder to retaliate against them. Multiple by the numerous effect extending effects available, and it's really hard to beat, short of luck. On paper. Now Striker Titans. Flashbacks blind, and Lightning Grenade is "OP" but still takes two pulses at 3 second intervals to kill. When the standard TiK for most high-end weapons is a second- plus, that's not that good. Melee has the possibility of recharging instantly, or doing minor AoE damage. Other than that, they have Unstoppable (increase base armor and makes them harder to kill in the .2 seconds they leap for FoH), Juggernaut (gives them a front shield for a duration comparable to the next), and Shoulder Charge. The class has... Nothing extraordinary. Defender Titan only has one build. Pick your Bubble, then meet me with Unbreakable, Relentless, and either perk in the last tree that isn't Iron Harvest. Sunbreaker has some malleability, but you're either playing Sun Spot build, or All- or- Nothing hammers. No in between. And with six hammers at max, with little range, no tracking, and pitiful splash (All given by the multitude of SunBro nerfs), it's not a weak class, but highly specialized into what it does. Again, on paper. Overall, the other classes, and subclasses within, have a wider range of playstyles and ease with which to play them that Titans don't. And that's where we get into the Balance problems.
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2 답변The concept of watching someone who tries to make a living out of playing a computer game for other people to watch is a bit sad to start with. Then there's the whole thing about actually listening to their opinions on stuff.
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2 답변Most people that cry Nerf it are to lazy to go get the same item. I personally don't think they should Nerf anything. If you spend hours sometimes days getting a bad ass weapon or armor then only for them to Nerf it really sucks. It should stay as it was released. It makes it where you don't want to spend the time getting the bad ass stuff because you know people whine because they're to lazy to go even if he odds.
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13 답변Everyone knows it's only the pvp community that cries at least 90 percent of the time. They are the sole reason they hate the game. Everyone else hates them for it.
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1 답변I just think they need to start buffing stuff and get rid of this stupid nerf shit starting with destiny 2 because destiny is -blam!-ed at this point
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1 답변Quiver does not need to be faster or more accurate. However I like your idea of switching keen scout and lockdown
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i dont think they should nerf anything,only thing that ever needed a nerf was the vex mythoclast when vog first came out.there is a video on youtube where it taken in unleveled up into a rumble match and it was totally unstoppable.thats the only op weapon ive ever seen with no counter to.imo
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4 답변I don't completely trust DestinyTracker's stats on subclass K/Ds for a few reasons. First, it only considers the K/Ds of people who have an account on the site. Also notice that the second graph to the right of that one shows immensely different ratios. There's clearly a gap in their data (as there always will be for 3rd party sites). To further this argument, go look at the statistics tracked on Guardian.gg, which also tell a very different story than the statistics you cited. Remember that the statistics both sites list are based on their data, which means they've taken the individual kds of every user and averaged them out themselves because Bungie doesn't make the aggregated kd ratios by subclass available through the API. TL;DR: I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you're basing your premise on faulty data.
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2 답변To be honest I am surprised that voidwalkers arent higher....... Voidlocks just feel like an extremely well rounded class......It is my favorite of the original Warlock classes..(got to finish completing my full stormcaller level up) and it feels like all of the perks fit well together....Certainly was a blast to play in both PVE and PVP... I saw way more voidwalkers than sunsingers in the early destiny days but I guess the firebolt situation pushed them into the background
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1 답변This makes more sense than what I usually read about involving needs and buffs. Nice job.
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4 답변You could have just said, "Bungie is not balancing anything. They are just nerfing things that are used the most and may be "annoying" to some cry babies."