There have been too many instances where I have joined raid groups where other fireteam members have railed on players who weren't 100% familiar with the mechanics of any given fight, and I wanted to submit this post to share with you all some ways that we can make raiding a better experience for all players involved regardless of skill level.
I want you all to know that you can invite a novice guardian to a raid and still beat it easily as long as you properly teach him or her. It's important to understand that, however well intentioned you may be when dealing with inexperienced players, you may not be aware that your instructions can be vague, misleading, or inappropriate for the player you are trying to teach. So here are my own tips:
[b]1. Teach to the lore.[/b] These raids have some wacky mechanics to be sure. But by explaining what the mechanics have to do with the lore of the game, you are framing a proper context and giving a purpose to the fight. Always explain the objective first (for example: "we have to help the taken guardian find his or her way back to our dimension by creating a pathway to the deathsinger 's brand") so that the fight feels less gimmicky and, in turn, more sensible.
[b]2. Understand that there are strategies within strategies--do not overlook any nuance.[/b] It is easy to overlook a small step in raiding that can mean the difference between a kill and a wipe because we don't properly assess what is going wrong. There are many nuanced strategies in each raid that can make things a lot easier for all members of a team, and if you are teaching how to raid you need to be familiar with at least most of them. For example, having two hunters on the first and third plates during the Oryx fight will improve performance because they can both tether the middle lane after killing their ogres, trapping the light eater knights and instantly and solving the problem of keeping the Knights away from the bombs. Another example would be the first gaze holder during the Golgoroth fight. He or she can use a machine gun to shoot the first bubble down, switch to primary, and take the ogres gaze, making the job much easier for the rest of the team.
[b]3. Give a guided tour of all routes for each player before the fight begins.[/b] Don't just tell players where to go, show them where to go. And don't just show them, show them how by literally having them run beside you as you demonstrate movement routes throughout a fight. Show them what to shoot and what not to shoot, and when. Tell them, for instance, what they are and are not responsible for. I can't stress that last part enough, because many players die due to burdening themselves with too many unnecessary tasks. A plate holder doesn't need to shoot acolytes--he or she only needs to kill the ogre, and then kill their knight. A aura holder doesn't need to shoot the Warpriest, only the acolytes in 7 to 9 second intervals. Any teacher who properly addresses this in a fight will find that any novice player can hold their own.
[b]4. Create a communication code.[/b] You should establish from the very beginning what everyone should say, and when. It's a given that communication is important, but too much talking over the mic will almost always cause a wipe. Be sure that you establish what everyone should say and when. Keeping it simple, like saying "runner up", "1 up", "2 up", "3 up", "I have the orb", "knight 4 down", "vessel down", "Oryx chest", "Oryx slamming", "run to bombs", "detonate in 3, 2, 1" will make the fight a lot easier. And notice that what I just wrote is basically the entirety of a whole round against Oryx. You literally do not have to say more than 30 words to defeat Oryx on hard mode! Think of it another way--which is the better statement: "I'm taken, someone needs to take my plate", or "Plate 3 taken, middle replace plate 3"? The second line keeps confusion to a minimum and will save you a lot of time and effort. Bad communication is just as bad as no communication, remember that!
[b]5. If you are imposing weapon and high light requirements, you're already doing it wrong.[/b] Let me be clear: you do NOT need a Touch of Malice to beat Oryx. You never needed a Gjallarhorn to beat Crota. You don't need a Black Spindle to finish Golgoroth. And you DEFINITELY do not need 335 light to finish a raid. Yes, these things make the fight easier. But a well taught team will ALWAYS perform just as well if not better than a team with maxed gear and specs. It's time to let that go. If you are the expert raider that you think you are, then you need to stop ignoring players who have the potential to be good raiders but can't because they don't have a weapon that you like! Remember, all of us had to beat the raid at least once without the Touch of Malice, right? So trust in the potential of a player who is willing to learn!
[b]6. Be aware of the difference between an inexperienced player and a "noob".[/b] Inexperienced players are those who are willing to learn, while "noobs" are immature, hardheaded players who do not listen to what is being taught to them. Be sure that, when creating a team of novice guardians, that you want players that are willing to follow orders and trust in their leader. When you have a team of mature guardians, you will know that the fight can be won, regardless of how much experience they have.
[b]7. Be kind![/b] It's amazing to me how often kindness is an overlooked quality among many guardians. This is exactly why I prefer to play with newer players over seasoned ones, because seasoned players are too often jaded by their experiences and less willing to be patient and kind to others. If a new player fails at his or her job, be nice about it! Refer to my second step--assess and reteach, and do it nicely! When you are mean to a guardian you are making that guardian worry not only about the fight, but about being insulted by you, which will only make his or her performance worse. I have been in many teams of "seasoned" players who failed, and I have been in many teams of "novice" players who have succeeded, all for this very reason!
So that's it for me, for now at least. I just felt that this is important because I feel terrible whenever I join teams where people blame others for failing. There's already a lot of toxicity in Destiny, so help it be a better game by being a better guardian for yourself and others!
-Skyrender6
POST EDIT: The positive response to this discussion really shows that we've got a great community here, even if it doesn't always show. Lord knows that I've been impatient, but it's never too late to rethink what your role is in a game like this and to pay kindness forward. Because at the end of the day, you're playing with five other human beings at the other end of that connection. And they may be strangers to you, but so are you to them!
Thank you all for your honest responses, and that includes those who disagree with my points as well, because your honesty is key in understanding why the conflict exists in the first place. Bungie, we need to talk more about this because I just know that your game will be an even greater success if you take an active role in teaching raid etiquette and inclusionary tactics!
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Just teach them what to do, if they want the lore, they can research it. If it's someone who continues to say they already know what to do (I'm talking to the person who caused xylar to be a thing), than kick them and find someone else
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14 답변작성자: sackboy4266 8/20/2016 12:40:54 AMor they can git gud not really my problem if they cant do the raid then go do raid when raid launches and beat it before ppl will start having their own requirements lol. if you are new then there will be tutorials and then you can try out yourself no excuses why these noobs at 335 cant even do hardmode raid when I can beat hardmode at 294-295 light its not hard they just suck at the game.
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You sir are legend! Never raided before myself I've been put of by these arses that post 'must have this, must have that, must be light level 330 and a kill ratio of 4.0 must have malice' to me it's sadly been a no go area because I'm an average social gamer without a fire team. Great post and would love to learn from you 1 day keep up the fight guardian!
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Tldr I'll join a raid group and if we wipe the first time you can tell if that groups gonna get it done or not so I'll just stick with rage quitting when I know we're not gonna get it done. The raids have been out for so long and everyone should know what to do by now.
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4 답변Very well written. The thought put into it speaks for itself. I really liked Number 1. I hadn't used the same words, but to me on the Totems if you don't explain to someone the objective is to open the door they don't have the context to understand why each of the steps and mechanics are crucial toward success. And you're right, most skip right past such things. The thought about having a new raider actually run along the pathways beside you, excellent feedback. I have overlooked that sometimes myself, even. I would like to talk about the Touch of Malice part. My thinking is people imposed that requirement so when doing a Heroic run you had proof of completing the raid on Normal. You can't get the weapon without beating the raid, so if you have it you have proof of a completion under your belt on Normal. I call those who make noob mistakes noobs, and just trust they won't take it personal. I'm not mean about it, so I've not had too much of an issue with it. But I'm not one who gets offended by particular words. I, myself, make noob mistakes and get razed about them by my best buddies when I do. I like it, keeps me humble. I'm gonna use your final point as an opportunity to have a discussion. There are times when I like to do what I call "Learner runs." Helping someone beat Oryx for the first time is very fulfilling. Seeing a team come together and have the harmony required to pull it off is a great thrill. But sometimes I'm just trying to run my 3rd character through with some friends, and we need a 5th and 6th, and I'm not looking to spend more than 60 to 90 minutes in total on the raid. I find it enormously frustrating when someone claims to know what they're doing, and they don't. I find it frustrating cause I [u][b]hate[/b] [/u] having to be a jerk, or to boot someone. But when I've got a team of friends, and we've all done it together a dozen times in 90 minutes or less, and we're stuck for 45 minutes on the totems cause someone who said they knew what they were doing doesn't... if I'm the raid leader they put me in a very tough position. Be a jerk, boot them, or watch the morale of my team disintegrate before my eyes. Also, being the person who organizes and communicates with 4 or 5 regulars, and recruits that last 1 or 2 you need is [i]a whole lot of painstaking work[/i] and if you are ALWAYS kind, you get pooped on a lot by inconsiderate and selfish and impatient people, even though they're the one who doesn't know what they're doing. I keep advocating it. I think those who haven't beaten the raid have an obligation to be upfront about their lack of experience right off the bat, and allow the team to make the conscious choice if we want to guide you through the raid. Maybe it means when I'm LFGing and so on, I make a ritual of inspecting the players I don't know to check their gear and achievements to ensure they're not using a sword or fusion rifle (based on real-life events) on the DPS sections and that they have at least a Normal Mode completion under their belt. Maybe I should take it upon myself. But really, I think part of being honorable and a gentleman, and to me those qualities are a big part of what you are writing about in your message, means if you need guidance that you ask for it up front. Don't try to hide it. Don't wait til 5 wipes for us to confront you about it. And due to that, I actually have some respect to some of my past raid leaders who were pretty intense jerks. They trained me to be a considerate raider. To not open a chest til the team is there. To not skip ahead of the team. To follow orders and directions. And sometimes people need the negative experience of being told off in front of the team to get it into their head that some behavior is unacceptable. Do you understand what I mean? Either way, great read and I agree nearly in whole with every syllable you wrote. And it's a topic I care a great deal about, too. May the Force be with you. Noa Kenobi
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1 답변People ask for Spindle and Malice bacause they don't to take 9 hours to do Kingsfall. My own personal salt comes from these scrubs who LIE about knowing everything but stumble around like a bunch of blockheads when they actually have to participate. This isn't Crota. You have to actually do something this go around, if you can't do it. Don't bother.
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there's teaching, and then there's overloading. it's not necessary to guide a newbie through every single job at a given checkpoint or to dump all the lore onto them, i prefer to generally explain what we're doing as a whole and the consequences for not doing things that way, and i emphasize their role in our team and what they're being asked to do. for example, golgoroth CM. let's say i'm running 1, I prefer a bubble Titan to go down and pop bubble and everyone gets in, i down the orb and grab gaze on my own. i don't need to explain what i'm doing when i'm up top, all i need to explain is that the newbie needs to clear adds with the rest of us, go down and pop his bubble right where i show him after grabbing ammo, to look out for the Unwavering Light debuff while sniping golgo in the tummy (and warn him of the consequences for not doing so!), where to stack up after 2 takes the gaze, how to take the gaze from that spot and where to go once he has it. then when the taken appear, to watch out for thralls down there. _that's it_. if he wants more than that, he can read through the grimoire and the lore posts scattered between here and reddit on his own. i don't need to show him the long way for 6 to run, i don't need to explain how cursed thralls spawn neverending until the sixth gaze finally burns out, i don't need to tell him the advantages and disadvantages of every single possible weapon combination other than making sure he has a decent sniper equipped and the dangers of rocket launchers in KF in general. too much information is as bad as not enough in some cases, a first-timer can get turned around so badly they'll never want to raid again thinking it's too complicated. after that first time, after we've had the chance to go through it more than once and they have a solid feel for some of the mechanics, if they have lore or mechanics questions i'm always happy to oblige, but a first-timer, if they're very new to raiding i prefer to keep things simple and let them get a feel for what's going on as we progress. a lot of learning to raid is watching what went wrong as we attempt it, not someone talking at you for twenty minutes before you even begin an encounter.
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2 답변When I get the sense a team is toxic I all of a sudden have the urge to do a patrol and quickly excuse myself. I don't have time at my ripe old age to take a video game seriously. When I teach mechanics, one of the hardest things (and most frustrating) is getting new players to admit they don't know something and ask questions. I try to create a safe place to encourage questions, but some players just can't ask for help. Your post was really, really good. I hope it changed some attitudes about teaching raids.
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I haven't played destiny in a long time and could do with finding a raid team to help me get back into it for the dlc, have to admit it puts me off looking as I remember what it's like trying to join new teams and I've been out the loop too long to have the best gear :(
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Personally when i teach my clan members,i dont bother with the lore,theres alot to explain and alot of people dont seem to grasp that they cant leave the plates at oryx or not to run of with the aura at totems.......giving them lore ontop JUST confuses them even more. My clan ive got detailed guides of the entire kf raid up so members can read before heading in. To me being able to teach means having patience and taking as long as needed until the whole team understand each section. I explain every encounter before we start each one,which includes what will happen,what we need to do and the best way of doing that. Also a good teacher knows which roles will suit which team member best........ive never failed a raid when teaching new comers......bottom line with KF its all about the comms.
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2 답변Lack of patience is the biggest thing I've found when trying to raid. Oh you made a mistake? Here's the boot buddy. Got tired of it and won't even bother trying the new raid it'll be just the same. As long as coe is still around and viable then its all good.
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3 답변I couldn't agree more. I don't raid very often. Especially because I've had so much bad experience with "expert" players who treat people like shit and don't have any pateince.
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I think you should take this and create a posting on [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame]r/DestinyTheGame[/url] reddit.. I'm sure you get some great feed back there as well. If I could upvote this more than once, I would in a heartbeat.
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Great post. We're lucky enough to have an excellent person in our group who takes people into the raid (any of them) with one requirement: must have a mic. That's it. He's very patient and explains things until you understand. I went into all my first raids with him and can't say enough about him. I hope that there are others out there that teach the raids like him. If only there was a Bungie Spotlight type thing for guardians like him and not all these streamers and YouTubers that I don't give a crap about. I'd rather see something about what I call "real" Guardians. Sorry for the rant.
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Honestly, I don't think it is wrong to request higher light levels and guns like the Spindle sometimes, and in other cases, a lot of the time. Because of this: 1. people who have taken the time and put in the work to do such most likely have also watched a YouTube video before doing a raid the 1st time and most importantly, I don't usually go Raiding for fun, after i have run it about 4 times. I only raid after that to level up, so I can go play Trials of Osiris. Sure their are other ways of levelling up your light, however, I tried doing this when TTK came out and it took soooo much time for too little work. Truth be told, we all know, if you want to level up at a rate in which you can get yourself ready for Trials...you have to run the Raid, enough said. Well, when you are doing this, you want to get through the raid as quickly as possible so people who are higher in light level most likely almost always, have run the raid and know what they are doing. That, is why I usually ask for higher light levels. I don't always request certain guns, but I do put a light level as a requirement, but i am also fair on that (ie: Hard Mode King Fall before April uodate when max light level was 320, I'd ask for 315 and say you must know what you are doing, would maybe accept people down to 310 if they promised they knew what they were doing and this was not their primary character...)
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There is a frustration when it comes to the final boss Oryx. People have bad connections, it will 110% be a wipe. One simple mistake will spell disaster for your entire fire team. While it is important to teach how to raid properly, most just want a drama free raid. You have a great post, I try my best to walk fire teams through if they have 0 experience, but this is a 4 hour plus ordeal. 4 hours is a lot of time.
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These noobs need to learn how to YouTube, it's totally not like youtubers and twitch streamers don't post them. their is a video on the ENTIRE kings fall how to do, literally 2 weeks after ttk dropped. It's not hard to jump on a damn platform people.... Watch a damn video and "git Gud" If u can't get it, maybe patrol is more ur pace or skill level, watever u want to call it