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작성자: Skyrender6 8/20/2016 2:44:07 PM
483

How to properly teach raiding.

There have been too many instances where I have joined raid groups where other fireteam members have railed on players who weren't 100% familiar with the mechanics of any given fight, and I wanted to submit this post to share with you all some ways that we can make raiding a better experience for all players involved regardless of skill level. I want you all to know that you can invite a novice guardian to a raid and still beat it easily as long as you properly teach him or her. It's important to understand that, however well intentioned you may be when dealing with inexperienced players, you may not be aware that your instructions can be vague, misleading, or inappropriate for the player you are trying to teach. So here are my own tips: [b]1. Teach to the lore.[/b] These raids have some wacky mechanics to be sure. But by explaining what the mechanics have to do with the lore of the game, you are framing a proper context and giving a purpose to the fight. Always explain the objective first (for example: "we have to help the taken guardian find his or her way back to our dimension by creating a pathway to the deathsinger 's brand") so that the fight feels less gimmicky and, in turn, more sensible. [b]2. Understand that there are strategies within strategies--do not overlook any nuance.[/b] It is easy to overlook a small step in raiding that can mean the difference between a kill and a wipe because we don't properly assess what is going wrong. There are many nuanced strategies in each raid that can make things a lot easier for all members of a team, and if you are teaching how to raid you need to be familiar with at least most of them. For example, having two hunters on the first and third plates during the Oryx fight will improve performance because they can both tether the middle lane after killing their ogres, trapping the light eater knights and instantly and solving the problem of keeping the Knights away from the bombs. Another example would be the first gaze holder during the Golgoroth fight. He or she can use a machine gun to shoot the first bubble down, switch to primary, and take the ogres gaze, making the job much easier for the rest of the team. [b]3. Give a guided tour of all routes for each player before the fight begins.[/b] Don't just tell players where to go, show them where to go. And don't just show them, show them how by literally having them run beside you as you demonstrate movement routes throughout a fight. Show them what to shoot and what not to shoot, and when. Tell them, for instance, what they are and are not responsible for. I can't stress that last part enough, because many players die due to burdening themselves with too many unnecessary tasks. A plate holder doesn't need to shoot acolytes--he or she only needs to kill the ogre, and then kill their knight. A aura holder doesn't need to shoot the Warpriest, only the acolytes in 7 to 9 second intervals. Any teacher who properly addresses this in a fight will find that any novice player can hold their own. [b]4. Create a communication code.[/b] You should establish from the very beginning what everyone should say, and when. It's a given that communication is important, but too much talking over the mic will almost always cause a wipe. Be sure that you establish what everyone should say and when. Keeping it simple, like saying "runner up", "1 up", "2 up", "3 up", "I have the orb", "knight 4 down", "vessel down", "Oryx chest", "Oryx slamming", "run to bombs", "detonate in 3, 2, 1" will make the fight a lot easier. And notice that what I just wrote is basically the entirety of a whole round against Oryx. You literally do not have to say more than 30 words to defeat Oryx on hard mode! Think of it another way--which is the better statement: "I'm taken, someone needs to take my plate", or "Plate 3 taken, middle replace plate 3"? The second line keeps confusion to a minimum and will save you a lot of time and effort. Bad communication is just as bad as no communication, remember that! [b]5. If you are imposing weapon and high light requirements, you're already doing it wrong.[/b] Let me be clear: you do NOT need a Touch of Malice to beat Oryx. You never needed a Gjallarhorn to beat Crota. You don't need a Black Spindle to finish Golgoroth. And you DEFINITELY do not need 335 light to finish a raid. Yes, these things make the fight easier. But a well taught team will ALWAYS perform just as well if not better than a team with maxed gear and specs. It's time to let that go. If you are the expert raider that you think you are, then you need to stop ignoring players who have the potential to be good raiders but can't because they don't have a weapon that you like! Remember, all of us had to beat the raid at least once without the Touch of Malice, right? So trust in the potential of a player who is willing to learn! [b]6. Be aware of the difference between an inexperienced player and a "noob".[/b] Inexperienced players are those who are willing to learn, while "noobs" are immature, hardheaded players who do not listen to what is being taught to them. Be sure that, when creating a team of novice guardians, that you want players that are willing to follow orders and trust in their leader. When you have a team of mature guardians, you will know that the fight can be won, regardless of how much experience they have. [b]7. Be kind![/b] It's amazing to me how often kindness is an overlooked quality among many guardians. This is exactly why I prefer to play with newer players over seasoned ones, because seasoned players are too often jaded by their experiences and less willing to be patient and kind to others. If a new player fails at his or her job, be nice about it! Refer to my second step--assess and reteach, and do it nicely! When you are mean to a guardian you are making that guardian worry not only about the fight, but about being insulted by you, which will only make his or her performance worse. I have been in many teams of "seasoned" players who failed, and I have been in many teams of "novice" players who have succeeded, all for this very reason! So that's it for me, for now at least. I just felt that this is important because I feel terrible whenever I join teams where people blame others for failing. There's already a lot of toxicity in Destiny, so help it be a better game by being a better guardian for yourself and others! -Skyrender6 POST EDIT: The positive response to this discussion really shows that we've got a great community here, even if it doesn't always show. Lord knows that I've been impatient, but it's never too late to rethink what your role is in a game like this and to pay kindness forward. Because at the end of the day, you're playing with five other human beings at the other end of that connection. And they may be strangers to you, but so are you to them! Thank you all for your honest responses, and that includes those who disagree with my points as well, because your honesty is key in understanding why the conflict exists in the first place. Bungie, we need to talk more about this because I just know that your game will be an even greater success if you take an active role in teaching raid etiquette and inclusionary tactics!
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  • Seven steps? I see what you did ther...

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  • One of the reasons I don't like using a mic is people are generally assholes if you mess up in a raid, at least from my experience. I just use agree/disagree emotes as yes or no.

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  • 작성자: dadomike 8/20/2016 7:01:11 AM
    For what it's worth, if you're on gmt/cet heroes of the 6 fronts runs guided raids on both nm and hm on a weekly basis, we also run guided VoG runs and Crota runs for flawless raider... ...all we ask is that players pay attention and try their best, if we get there great if not it's all the same, important thing is that we get at least some kicks and giggles out of the run, all of our guides are very experienced, and as we are almost all dads we have patience enough to cope with almost anything lol No to rage easy players and No to those that think that having watched something on you tube they know it all lol P.s. PS4

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    3 답변
    • The exact reasons I've never had the chance to finish the hard raid.

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      3 답변
      • Two things I want to add: (1) No matter what anyone says, the raids are [b]not[/b] easy. Just because you've done it dozens of times and can [i]now[/i] run it in your sleep does not make it easy. (2) Learn on Normal. While you can take a new person through on Hard, it will take them more playthroughs to learn on Hard as you'll most likely just be telling them where to stand and not the why. To any one who hasn't raided because "people won't help you learn", I call BS. I've never ran into a team that wasn't willing to help a new or inexperienced player out. There's plenty of posts on LFG from people looking specifically to help new people through. Post yourself as a new raider and people will definitely invite you.

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        3 답변
        • 작성자: CapoBlue 8/22/2016 4:36:24 AM
          Or you can just teach them the mechanics and how they work. No need for a backstory as why you must step on a plate. Telling them a story instead of letting them know the mechanics and steps needed for the raid is unnecessary. Not saying your way is bad, I really like this idea but I feel the simple approach works better and is more efficient. I brought many noobs through raids and all I told them was how the raid works and what needs to be done in order to proceed. I didn't give them a backstop just what they needed to know. The backstory can come later when they get better. [spoiler]This all pertains to "teach them the lore". Lore is unnecessary.[/spoiler]

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          2 답변
          • Just from being taught by a group on how to do kings fall, I find that having at least 2 Sherpas to teach can be helpful too. One Sherpa (great guy who has a lot of patience, still do raids with him) had another friend be a sherpa and it turned out to be pretty good. Having more than one perspective for teaching can help people learn. The second Sherpa sometimes interrupted the first Sherpa to give his own tips, first Sherpa wouldn't get annoyed by this, that's kinda why the first Sherpa has a lot of patience, he had to deal with a newbie like me and the second Sherpa. But it turned out well, we got through the raid and I made five new friends.

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          • Can you teach me how to duggy?

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            2 답변
            • Teach to help the kids!: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/211481067?showBanned=0&path=0

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            • Thanks for this, because of most peoples impatience with me, I have yet to complete KF.

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              30 답변
              • Too bad I don't have all the time In the world to waste my time wiping for 4 hours just cause 1 noob cant do kf. If the raid is new that's a different story but if you come and ask for elitist a year later without bothering to even watch tutorials of how to do the raid then expect us to ignore noobs like you. I aint trying to be mean I just don't like teaching noobs 4 hours how to do the raid if you cant do it then watch dattos old kf tutorials or other youtubers we are not forced to help noobs do raids so all these noobs need to stop crying just cause they get booted because we are not gonna change our minds just cause your sad we wont help. if you cant do the kf when its a year old then don't play this game no point playing a game if you are way too late to even get the loot for it. In rise of iron it will be the same unless if you don't have to anything at all like in crota or vog but if that's not the case then too bad I guess........

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                11 답변
                • -Be decent light for the activity -Be willing to listen and learn That's all

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                  2 답변
                  • I am a terrible teacher i can do and i know every raid and poe forwards and backwards but teaching is something i cant do Even out of the game i am very good at anything math related but me trying to teach is even more confusing than what the other person started with No matter who it is too, the only way i can teach is by someone watching me and understanding my terrible explanations of things

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                  • I only got to do kings fall recently due to friends on here ,it was a nightmare at first . watch the raids on YouTube people said and familiarise yourself with how it works but then because you haven't actually done it ..... sorry dude ,kicked. I understand that some people don't want to take hours going through it but people are missing out on a good part of the game imo,

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                    4 답변
                    • Take it from an experienced raider that does not have a regular raid team: I wish there were more folks like you on LFG. Most of the raids I enter (especially lately) have a few that do not know what they are doing and the asshats running the raid create an environment where admitting that gets you booted. This only leads to a bunch of wasted time for everyone. Lately I don't even bother raiding because it seems like every team I get on has 2 or 3 "experts" that hurt the success of the team more than help it. It's not the inexperienced players who ruin it, it's the ones that take leaderships positions simply because they know what to do but have no clue how to lead a team.

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                      1 답변
                      • Fantastic attitude towards the raid; you are the type of player that will help people take that next step into the top PVE content in the game. Too many people are turned away by the unfriendly requirements and attitudes of players looking to complete the raid. For each player offering genuine guidance and assistance, there are the people who will not let a person into a group unless they pretty much have no more use for the raid. Now, King's fall, more so than the previous raids, requires execution from all the players in their various roles. People have gotten used to the carrying system as opposed to the helping and teaching role that while may be more time consuming, will often have better results (especially at oryx), and leads to a more prepared player after the raid. One other thing, for me there are two things that are crucial to teaching raids that were slightly overlooked in your post. First, have the time to guide the players. When people go into raids, and demand that it be completed within the hour, it puts a lot of unnecessary pressure on the less experienced players. I know groups can finish the raid in around 45 minutes, and that is great for them, and when you play with your group that can do that, do it. But when helping people make sure you have the time to help them. This is 100% implied in your post, as guided tours are not going to be completed quickly, but I thought the emphasis on it wouldn't hurt. Secondly, adding on to being kind, make sure you are having fun with it. Have casual conversations, make jokes, try out new loadouts (within reason). If you are having fun as opposed to solely playing to get the drops, you won't be bothered by the hopefully occasional wipes, and anyone learning the raid will feel much more comfortable Helping people with the raid is honestly one of my favourite experiences in destiny. The sincere gratitude, as well as just hearing their excitement over their accomplishment, feels really good. P.S. if anyone needs help on PS4, feel free to add me and I'd be happy to join if I can, and if needed can try to bring a group.

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                        9 답변
                        • Hey there! Any Roleplayers, or authors, out there who would like to join my group made (recently) for us to hang out and collaborate on some awesome works of Online Roleplay? I've been looking for people who understand RolePlaying or have wanted to try it out for some time now and haven't had the chance. The first major RolePlay will be a horror based RP centered around a biological outbreak, but you can create your own RPs such as Destiny or off of games, books, movies, and your own imagination :). Any questions just PM me as well as, IF INTERESTED IN JOINING PM ME TO RECEIVE LINK TO GROUP :3 ALL ROLEPLAYERS OF ANY LEVEL WELCOME ^_^

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                        • If only my raid team didn't give up after 4 tries, I have managed to beat every raid boss except oryx

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                        • O crap strategies within strategies, strategy ception

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                        • As someone who teaches new players the game to nearly every extent possible, this even helped me with a few things I didn't even think about doing. I never thought about the glorified explanation for players, though I explain pretty well I didn't think to tell them in a sort of glorified way. This is a good post, thanks for it. This is the stuff I wanna see from players, not a bunch of nerf requests. Thanks.

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                        • yeah man i get tired of being the sherpa all the time

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                        • Great job U r right on basiclly everything The only problem is when u try teaching some ppl don't listen or just lie to u and tell u they know everything and have completed the raid multiple times That's why u see requests for bs or touch

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                        • All good points buddy & I've helped God knows how many do there 1st Raids, I find it's always better to explain clearly & make people feel welcome so they aren't scared to ask about anything. Very good post.

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                        • This reminds me of the first time I did oryx. People guided me and we finished. But, I didn't have a mic, and I was using hard light.

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                        • 작성자: bFLY 8/21/2016 2:57:51 AM
                          This is great. I havnt played destiny in over a year but ROI interests me. This would have been great to have back then with vanilla destiny after the Atheon patch. Cheesing created such a huge level gap which led to the craziness of "level 30s only" and kept many a guardian either stuck at level 29, or not able to raid entirely. If it wasn't for my ghorn, YouTube tutorials, and my great bullshitting skills id have probably never completed a raid lol. I'm glad to see that this community has some good people in it. I never touched TTK so I'm very far behind. Honestly, dealing with crazy raiders, and going through the struggle of finding a team willing to take someone whose is not max level is something I don't miss, and the thought of having to go through that again just to catch up is honestly the only thing that makes me hesitant to get back into Destiny. Lol you give me hope that someone will take a guardian TTK rookie under their wing and teach him the ropes. I'll do my homework beforehand just like I did for Atheon and Crota, but nothing beats actually doing it so I hope I can find some cool, patient Guardians to raid with.

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                        • As a player who started Destiny just this year I really hope this messages gets through everyone's head. There have been way too many raids where I've been kicked solely because of light level. Luckily, some guardians had the patience to teach me what to do and when to do it. Idk why a lot of people think they're too good to be someone's teacher. Like everyone says, we were all new to this once.

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