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작성자: Slain 4/5/2016 2:14:35 AM
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Slain

Removing Elemental Primaries Exemplifies Bungie's Lazy Approach to Solving Problems

In any game, issues arise which call for some form of change. Destiny is no exception. Throughout Destiny's life cycle, weapon balance and investment systems have seen several forms, each the result of a very basic means of solving problems: taking the lazy way out. Weapons aren't balanced? Something is being used more than everything else? [b]Nerf it![/b] Sunbreaker titans seem really powerful in comparison to some weak-ass subclasses? [b]Nerf it![/b] Elemental primaries alter the way players choose which weapons to use? [b]Get rid of them![/b] Problem solved, right? Almost every time an issue such as these has arisen in Destiny, the Bungie solution has been to nerf it or remove it from the game. While some balance is achieved in the process, what is also achieved is a scorched earth policy. Everything fun or useful in the game has always been and always will be targeted. Over three big weapons patches, the level of balance in the game has only increased slightly, if at all. What the weapon patches serve to do more than "balance" the game is to pick what people like to use and destroy it. Sure, weapons are somewhat more equal after a patch, but they are "equally shitty", as Draken Wolfe says. Why can't we have weapons that are equally good, equally useful, and equally fun to use? We could, if Jon Weisnewski and the Wrecking Crew didn't make the following [b]completely unnecessary[/b] moves: -nerfing almost every year 1 perk -replacing most middle tree nodes with useless tradeoffs which hinder use of the weapon rather than boost it, as the word "perk" would suggest -nerfing auto rifles because an Iron Banner bounty forced people to use them "too much" -nerfing hand cannons as a result of the meta shift following the auto rifle nerf -nerfing pulse rifles as a result of the meta shift following the hand cannon nerf - *inevitably* nerfing scout rifles as the result of the meta shift following the pulse rifle nerf -nerfing fusions over and over and over and over and over again because some guy in the studio knows how to use them -introducing perks like exhumed, replenish, icarus, surrounded, underdog, guerrilla fighter, last resort, army of one, etc in order to make good perks rare as shit -nerfing Gjallarhorn because your shitty boss design made it effective -nerfing Ice Breaker because your shitty boss design made it effective -nerfing Black Hammer because your shitty boss design made it effective Every one of these could have have been avoided, had you exercised a little brain power once in a while. Do you know why weapons like Ice Breaker and Black Hammer were really good? Because bosses in Destiny just stand there and beg you to shoot them in the head. But instead of making the enemies less -blam!-ing stupid, you make the weapon useless. Way to go, sandbox team. The same principle applies to Luke Smith's ass-hatted decision to remove elemental primaries from the game. [quote]They had the distinct and undesirable property of limiting a broad weapon sandbox to a few weapons[/quote] This is true. Having elements on primaries not only incentivized playing endgame activities, but also set those weapons apart from others. Playing these activities gave you a form of advantage when burns were active. Without endgame weapons having any quality that vendor weapons don't have, how does removing this added bonus achieve anything good? It makes raid weapons essentially just infusion trash, especially when you give them garbage perks and heavily randomize their quality. [quote]I strongly prefer the breadth of arsenal weapons, the potential of finding a better Legendary then you have to being stuck because of a damage color[/quote] First of all, having a "damage color" doesn't make you stuck with a weapon for 2 reasons: 1 - damage elements in destiny serve such a trivial purpose that having arc vs. kinetic on a weapon makes almost no difference 2 - because of this, what constitutes a "better" legendary is not an element, but the weapon's perks. Having an element vs. kinetic on a weapon, again, makes almost no difference when you take into account which perks one weapon has over the other. And, if you're frequently finding vendor weapons with better perks, that's not a good thing; endgame weapons are supposed to be the best in the game. [b]And[/b], exactly how does removing the element from one weapon make the "potentially better legendary" better? Answer: it doesn't; it's a move to create the illusion of weapons being better and having more variety instead of making actual improvements. It's -blam!-ing lazy. Additionally, this problem is easily solved by making primary elements not exclusive to endgame gear. If you could infuse any legendary weapon with an element using a material reward from some high level activity, how does this not solve the problem more than complete removal of elemental primaries does? [quote]No Legendary weapons with damage colors has the property of making secondaries ad heavies more important because of their damage color[/quote] This is where Luke really lost me. If there is a quality of primary weapons that would make specials and heavies less important, it sure as hell isn't damage elements. This is for the same reasons as above. The damage element system in Destiny is almost pointless. The only purpose elements serve is to do some bonus damage to enemy shields. If you honestly think the slight bonus damage to enemy shields trivializes special and heavy weapons in the presence of an elemental primary, you should play Destiny. You should do it some time. The problem is not the potential of primary weapons to fulfill the role of specials and heavies,; the problem is stupidity of the damage element system. There you have it, Bungie taking the easy way out on an issue once again. Instead of turning eyes to the flawed element system, you remove the thing "causing the problem." The thing you removed was an incentive to earn endgame weapons, a thing that gave people reason to use some otherwise garbage weapons, a thing that didn't harm the use of special and heavy weapons as your delusions lead you to believe. You see primaries with damage elements as harmful, but rather the fault lies with the flawed system. Give elements more of a purpose in Destiny. Give every enemy an elemental weakness and resistance. Make primary weapons infusable with weak elements that don't have an effect on weaknesses and resistances, but still provide an advantage with burn modifiers, and still give the player more of an incentive to earn endgame gear. Because as of now, there is [b]absolutely -blam!-ing ZERO[/b] incentive to earn endgame weapons. If there is a balance issue, fix it. Don't just nerf or remove whatever your excel spreadsheets tell you is a problem, because it has led to a boring and lifeless game which was once far more fun, and had far more variety and incentive to play. I can't believe the guy who made the masterpieces that are Destiny's raids is the same guy who strode lengths to remove every bit of fun and reward from them.
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#feedback

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  • lol

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  • 작성자: seraphic_thunder 4/4/2016 2:45:38 PM
    So I still can't make posts, only comments. Can someone please make a help post for me. Whenever I hit create topic I get sent to the 404 page so I can't even make a help topic.

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  • It's funny. I've found that, in year two primaries, I've just been looking for stuff to replace my year ones adequately. I loved VoC. The full auto scout paired with easy to control recoil. Of course, it seems like you can't get full auto on a scout anymore, but the handling and recoil can be matched, which is why, once I found a good version of Not Like The Others that fit my requirements, I haven't changed since. Weapon "color" never defined my choices. I'm going to stick with what I'm comfortable with. Trying to force your players to play with different weapons, just because you designed all of them, is foolish. Find out what players like the most and design around them. I've always said that a good, live updating game only needs one thing to be great: player cooperation. Bounce ideas off of them, give them what they want, work with them. Stories can erupt over night from one player idea. In return, give them recognition for their contributions. Free access to that idea. If the developer and the player keep moving towards a positive future instead of getting hung up on the crap and mistakes of the past, the game evolves. Bungie has elements (see what I did there?) of that in the pipes already. They simply have to get two things down: not nickle and dime-ing the players for their ideas (you can still nickle and dime them for your own ideas, you do need to turn a profit, but don't allow ANY of those elements to give an advantage over the players who spent hours working for similar things) and implementing the most demanded ideas first (instead of the easiest to implement ideas). Hopefully, that is the direction Destiny takes in the future.

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  • http://imgur.com/CnAVsiR Weep in its glory.

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  • Bump

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  • Spot on! Y1, tons of guns and different load outs. Y2, all about light level and no need for special load outs.

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  • 작성자: Firestorm 8570 4/4/2016 12:53:23 AM
    The sad truth of the matter is that destiny is a good game. We like it. We have invested money into this game. Its also a broken game and there in lies the problem. I've read your post and many of the comments from other people and i agree with all of it. But we are fans of this game which unfortunately means that they can do whatever they want and people will still play. I bought destiny a week after it released. I played it nonstop until a few months ago when i swore never to play it again because of the things you have mentioned. But i've come back. I miss it and no matter how much i refuse to play it, one person is not going to hurt them. These posts get read and ignored because we have no power. what we need is a community manager who cares. Deej and Cozmo are employed by bungie. So no matter how much we raise our opinion we are ignored because are community managers are being paid too. If these forums could elect members to be managers and such then we might have a better chance of being heard. I love this game but im continually disappointed and let down by how much they take advantage of us for being loyal and buying destiny because it was made by Bungie. A company that went from one of the most respected to a company that lines their pockets by screwing over their customers.

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    6 답변
    • [i]"Elemental primaries are being left behind. They had the distinct and undesirable property of limiting a broad weapon sandbox to a few weapons. You’re free to disagree, but I strongly prefer the breadth of arsenal options, the potential of finding a better Legendary than you have to being stuck because of a damage color."[/i] I never managed to get that particular quote out of my head and it's still firmly stuck in there now. For me, it was the complete opposite. Year1, my vault and all 3 characters were busting at the seems with weapons and I lost count of how many different loadouts I used to run. I'd regularly switch weapon loadouts during end game content, which is why I always found it hard to understand why DeeJ was adamant that players only needed 3 or 4 guns and additional vault space wasn't needed. I've said this before, but in year2, I had one loadout despite a diverse weapons sandbox. Why? Because whatever had the highest light would get the job done, there was no incentive to grind for that illusive special end game weapon when any drop, be it blue or legendary would suffice. Anything else, which was 99.9% lower light was junked immediately. Also, with weapon perks being fairly mild, there's not a whole lot to separate weapons and perks have honestly not been much of a focus to me since HoW. Now we're getting [b]more[/b] vault space? I thought we only needed 3 or 4 guns DeeJ? ;)

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    • Agreed #FateBringer2016 #BringFateBack

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    • BUMP

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    • 작성자: GHOSTFACE 4/4/2016 2:00:17 PM
      Bungie's boss designs are horrible indeed. They made snipers like IceBreaker and BlackHammer to work as intended and because they worked so well with their raid designs and bosses, they nerfed them. Even Gjallarhorn, the PvE boss melter was nerfed because it took out bosses to easily and also came a requirement of the elite players of Destiny. The Ghorn worked as intended in both aspects of the game PvE/PvP and it had the hidden perk Grenades and horseshoes which made it the best rocket launcher in Destiny to date. Why did they nerf it, If its not even year 2 is beyond me. That is a slap in the face to year 1 players. I adored those weapons. From my standpoint Im guessing that it was much easier to nerf weapons than to improve on the sandbox as a whole. But ok .. I guess (sigh)

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    • I like the points in this especially the primary damage type part. I'd like to add that I don't understand why there is a skull that makes enemy's shields crazy strong but they think us having a primary with a damage type is to good. How are you supposed to run one of each element to take shields out, when the only primary is zalo.

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    • 작성자: The 7th fall 4/4/2016 1:45:15 PM
      Spot on there Kabr, seems time has no effect on you(VoG joke). Anyway really damn good post much like the majority of the rest of your posts. I just don't get it how Bungie could possibly think that nerfing or removing things actually sets up for good balance or variety. I liked Blizzard's philosophy of 'if one thing is being overused, buff everything else to be in line with it'... why the f**k didn't Bungie learn that from them when Blizzard employees visited Bungie to coach them on how to make the game better??!! And that variety Luke 'a**hat' Smith talks of is total crap... all I see in PvE is Hung Jury, Not Like The Others paired with a 1000 yard stare and normally a high blast radius rocket like Ash Factory or the raid rocket. Before I'd see people with VoG guns, HoW guns, Dark Below guns, machine guns, rockets, hell even the Ghjallarhorn wasn't seen that much in the standard strike playlist because there was VARIETY. Boy oh boy is PvP worse... nothing but Mida Tools, Doctrine of Passing, a rise in Grasp of Malok PRs, Last Word, 1000 Yard Stare, Conspiracy Theory, (Harrowed) Quillim's Terminus, or Truth rocket launcher. I only ever get killed by a fusion rifle if my buddy OK405 is playing against me as he has a collection of different fusion rifles he loves to use. As for sidearms... pfftt piece of crap that can easily be shot down by a 1k stare or conspiracy theory.

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    • Bungie was just trying to do something different

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    • how does this guy not work at bungie>destiny team yet?

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    • 100% this. Bungie get your heads out of your asses

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    • 작성자: gallp13 4/4/2016 6:24:18 AM
      Get you want elemental primaries heck who doesn't ..... regrettably "Balance" is a verb not a noun. Usage stats (cf www.guardian.gg) show Merrill's team is on the right path. In any event Merrill has "lived the verb" for 2 decades learning the hard way .... PPC anyone ;) I'll back experience combined with commitment and passion any day. PS : old gallp knows the truth is not always popular :(

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      1 답변
      • This is very true. When i saw that hard raid was just the exact same weapons in red instead of white, I realized Bungie had taken the easy way out. After 2 hard runs and getting mostly garbage loot and moldering shards, that was enough for me to never do the raid again. Might try the challenge modes before April (when I move to Dark Souls and Ratchet and Clank), but beyond that max light is pointless and the RNG and loot are terrible. Every single person on my friend list (100+) moved away from Destiny after hard raid dropped and 90% of them have zero interest in coming back now. Shame too, they were all hardcore in year 1 and enjoyed it (mostly). Bungie sucked a lot of the run out of the game in year 2.

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      • Awesome post! I agree. I guess it's easier to remove things than to actually put thought and work into making it more functional. Like you said, endgame weapons are nothing more than infusion trash.

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        3 답변
        • I agree, 100%

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        • Glad to see you speaking the truth Kabr. I think that it's still hard to get Titan super kills...but everybody has a problem with us Titans. I try to do the best I can in crucible but these Warlocks and Hunters keep teleporting away and it's very annoying. I haven't gotten a single kill with Fist of Havoc in the longest time. Ward of Dawn always results in me getting rushed by every person on the enemy team thus ending in me and whoever is inside dying together. Hammer of Sol is ridiculous it has been nerfed so much that I only get one to two kills every time I use it. Yet I see Storm Callers, Gun Slingers, Blade Dancers, and Void Bombers getting four to six kills every time they use it. I know they're are other subclasses but Self Resurrection doesn't get many kills and Night Stalker always misses they're shot. All I'm seeing is snipers now a days too, and what happened to the skill it took using snipers? All people do now is zoom in, pull trigger, automatic head shot. 1000 Yard Stare is the absolute most overused weapon since the Shingen-E back in year one. For instance yesterday in Trials of Osiris we were put up against the most try hard snipers in the world. We only won three games yesterday and we all agreed not to play Trials until the sniper issue was fixed. Bungie I'm close to leaving you for ever, I've been a follower since Halo: Combat Evolved, I'm giving this next update a chance then I'm done for good.

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        • Just another reason to nerf fusion rifles ;0)

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        • Bump

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        • Great post mate, will bump so Bungie take notice! you are absolutely spot on about elemental primaries being a incentive of end game activities, and whats worse about this whole situation is that these elemental primaries were really only ever over used when there was a burn modifiers, which there are only TWO activities which have them - Nightfalls and PoE elemental primaries had little advantage in any other activity

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        • Bump

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        • 6
          In the topic of balance, bungie does this weapon balance every 3 to 4 months if not mistaken, everytime a new meta arrives at least, anyway my point as many others have said enough times and bungie doesn't seem to realize is why cant the nerfs done in pvp not affect pve.... cause ruins all the fun we can have. God knows how many times i try to switch weapons in pve just for some little fun but then i get reminded that oh yeah got nerfed.....

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        회원님은 해당 콘텐츠를 볼 수 없습니다.
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