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작성자: PillowPaladin
10/25/2015 2:27:55 AM
292
Sunbreaker Sub-Class Does Not Need A Rebalance Whatsoever
Hello, fellow Guardian.
Allow me to start with a statement:
[b]The Sunbreaker sub-class is entirely fair in respect to all other sub-classes and should NOT be rebalanced/nerfed/scrapped.[/b]
Hunters and Warlocks, prepare your torches and pitchforks...
I find the most efficient and effective method for resolving this issue is by individually addressing each comment and concern about Sunbreaker I have witnessed on this fine forum.
[quote]The Sunbreaker's armor is too strong! It needs to be nerfed severely because it's just not fair![/quote]
This is a very common complaint I see about Sunbreakers. However, I want to swiftly end an all-too-common misconception about Sunbreaker's "armor" -- there is no armor! That is, there is no [i]additional[/i] armor that the Sunbreaker Titan possesses when using his/her super. The only "armor" a Sunbreaker receives is the same damage resistance the Bladedancer and Sunsinger sub-class receives when a super is initially activated.
But wait, what makes Sunbreakers seem more invincible compared to Bladedancers and Sunsingers?
Two things:
1) Titan's have an increased Armor stat in general which becomes especially evident when a super is active (see Striker sub-class). This increased Armor stat is counter-balanced by Titans having lower Recovery and Agility compared to that of Hunters and Warlocks. Titans are designed to emphasize Armor, Warlocks are designed to emphasize Recovery and Hunters are designed to emphasize Agility. Hmm, sounds almost, [i]fair[/i], dare I say?
2) Most Sunbreakers use the "Cauterize" ability which triggers regeneration upon each Hammer kill (not to mention grenades, melee) which makes it seem as if their health never runs low. This is [b][i]identical[/i][/b] to the Hungering Blade ability that Bladedancers possess. Here are the two abilities' official descriptions for your convenience:
Cauterize: Enemies brought down by your fire regenerate your health.
Hungering Blade: Kills with Arc Blade and Blink Strike immediately regenerate health.
So why are people so upset with Sunbreakers sub-class, yet so accepting of the Bladedancer sub-class? I will address this near the conclusion of my post.
[quote]Titans have heat-seaking hammers! That requires no skill whatsoever - blatantly unfair.[/quote]
Well, they are actually not as heat-seeking as one might think. The Flameseeker ability only slightly alters its flight path to hit enemy targets. A blatant miss by the Titan will not automatically correct the hammer to turn 180° and "heat-seek" an enemy. Remember, Titans are actually giving up the entirety of abilities Explosive Pyre and Fleetfire for the small assistance to accuracy.
Ultimately, if you get killed by a Hammer, you only have yourself to blame for not running away. Or, more likely, the Titan simply made an athletic throw. That's not unfair; that's just a good play.
[quote]I can't kill Titans with my weapons even though a few of my teammates are firing as well![/quote]
Again, Titan's are designed to have that increased Armor stat we talked about earlier. That being said, in what world does a Super lose to primary, or even secondary, weapon fire? It's a Super! What do you expect? Remember, the Cauterize effect as well, if you "feed" the Titan's super by allowing him/her to get kills he regains his health!
So instead of taking the foolish strategy of charging a tank head-on, try running away instead? Put that Agility and Recovery to good use. You wouldn't charge a Bladedancer and expect to come out on top more that 10% of the time...
Again, It's important to remember that Supers trump casual weapon fire. It's common sense.
[quote]Titan's throw too many hammers![/quote]
Titans give up the powerful Suncharge and Scorched Earth perks when selecting Forgemaster effectively nerfing their own lethality in order to throw a few more hammers. Nothing unfair to report here, this simply compensates for the lack of other powerful abilities a Sunbreaker could potentially possess. We see this constantly with numerous sub-classes.
[quote]Sunbreakers are ruining the once beautiful Crucible.[/quote]
You're almost completely correct. I think this what you meant to say:
Sunbreakers are ruining the once [b]corrupt[/b] Crucible.
Sunbreakers are obliterating the unfair monopoly Warlocks and Hunters once held over the Crucible grounds. Hunters and Warlocks have enjoyed PVP [u]domination[/u] throughout all of Year 1 due to their PVP tailored Supers. Titans, on the other hand, had one decent sub-class for PVP (Striker) and one pathetic PVP sub-class (Defender).
Hunters and Warlocks are simply upset that they no longer can abuse the powerless Titan.
Bungie recognized the imbalance in PVP and addressed the issue perfectly in the creation of the Sunbreaker.
Now, all guardians stand equal.
And like the Phoenix, Sunbreakers arise from their Nova-Bombed, Gun-Slung, Sun-Sung, Blade-Danced ashes and torch any discrimination towards their fellow Titans.
[quote]Well, err... umm... everyone else agrees with me that Sunbreakers are OP![/quote]
Here is where I interject my opinion:
I believe that due to the majority of Destiny players playing as Hunters and Warlocks, there is a significantly massive bias towards the much smaller Titan population.
So of course there are more people crying for a Sunbreaker nerf compared to those who oppose a nerf. The numbers clearly indicate that most Guardians are Hunters and Warlocks that can't easily dominate the Crucible anymore.
The Hunter/Warlock population is frustrated so they all throw a tantrum.
Due to sheer volume of Hunters/Warlocks, that obnoxious tantrum has grown into a foolish uproar.
Now [i]that[/i] is unfair.
End.
I encourage and invite anyone who disagrees with my rhetoric to address me in the comments.
Thank you!
Also, I'd like to thank Bungie for their hard work in rebalancing the Crucible by creating Sunbreakers.
Without you, Titans would have forever faded further in the Crucible.
Which Guardians think HoS should be nerfed? Find out at this poll:
https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/165463843/0/0
[b][u]Additional points generated by this beautiful community[/u][/b]
[quote]Avly485: HoS is inferior to GG because HoS is like a fusion rifle with travel time. The aoe explosions offset the fact that it isn't hit scan like GG.[/quote]
[quote]ssolidus007: I main a Void Hunter and could not agree wth you more. If I die at the hands of a hammer it's my own damn fault. Nothing more satisfying than hearing the anvil pop and just wrecking him in the chest with my void bow. Plus it's just fun running away, it's like cat and mouse or intergalactic David vs Goliath.[/quote]
[quote]Xenith: It's not that they have extra armor. They have damage reduction of 55%, the same as a Sun Singer with Radiant Skin active.[/quote]
[quote]Wagsman1: The reality of Crucible is what this guy said. Hunters and Warlocks have ruled because of their superior abilities. Titans now have a Super that is on par with the other two classes. It's only an issue because now Hunters and Warlocks are getting a taste of their own medicine.[/quote]
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2 답변there is an easy way to deal with a sunbreaker Titan. Hunter tether is an easy way to counter that super along with any other super.
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3 답변Second reply. [quote] [quote]I can't kill Titans with my weapons even though 2 of my teammates are firing as well![/quote] Again, Titan's are designed to have that increased Armor stat we talked about earlier. That being said, in what world does a Super lose to primary, or even secondary, weapon fire? It's a Super! What do you expect? Remember, the Cauterize effect as well, if you "feed" the Titan's super by allowing him/her to get kills he regains his health! So instead of taking the foolish strategy of charging a tank head-on, try running away instead? Put that Agility and Recovery to good use. You wouldn't charge a Bladedancer and expect to come out on top more that 10% of the time... Again, It's important to remember that Supers trump casual weapon fire. It's common sense.[/quote] Except supers don't actually trump casual weapon fire all the time. I've been taken out in Stormtrance by a few guys firing auto rifles at close range. I've been taken out by a guy using a Scout rifle from afar. I've taken out Nova Bomb/Sunsinger Warlocks either outright or a tie with Last Word, Thorn, Mida Multi-Tool (pre-TTK), and now Shadowshot, Sunsingers, and Nova Bombers with Last Word, Hawkmoon, Boolean Gemini, Suros, and Red Death just to name a few. In short, I've both taken out and been taken out in other supers by casual weapon fire. The only time it doesn't work at all is against a Sunbreaker. As for Bladedancers, maybe I don't take them out by myself all the time, but I do make it possible for someone else to kill them. It's worth dying to make sure a Bladedancer only gets 1 or 2 kills instead of 4 or 5. But a Sunbreaker.. not only can I not take him out myself, but I'm either dead before I get the chance to (and so is everyone else around me) or he heals anyway. The Sunbreaker also seems to heal faster than a Bladedancer, or it just seems that way because he kills more quickly and takes less damage. [quote][quote]Titan's throw too many hammers![/quote] Titans give up the powerful Suncharge and Scorched Earth perks when selecting Forgemaster effectively nerfing their own lethality in order to throw a few more hammers. Nothing unfair to report here, this simply compensates for the lack of other powerful abilities a Sunbreaker could potentially possess. We see this constantly with numerous sub-classes.[/quote] Like other parts of your post, you seem to entirely miss the point. They aren't nerfing their own lethality. Why would they need to Suncharge someone when a Hammer is ranged, tracking, and AoE? Why would they need Scorched Earth? 1 Hammer murders everything except another Sunbreaker (or possibly a Radiant Skin Warlock), and so there's no need for damage from the ground effect of Scorched Earth. The last sentence of yours is so close, yet misses completely. The problem with the Sunbreaker is we actually [b]don't[/b] see that trade-off you're talking about. Bladedancers can either make their super last longer (kills recharge) OR they can heal. Sunbreakers can make their supers last longer (Forgemaster), AND they can heal through Cauterize. Nova Bomb can track enemies, or split into 3, or go faster and farther. Hammer of Sol can track, goes just as fast, just as far or further, and gets ~6 shots as opposed to 1. Sunsingers get damage reduction and 1 or 2 melee 1 hit kills. Sunbreakers get more damage reduction, healing, and ~6 ranged AoE 1 hit kills. Golden Gun gets 3 (or 4, but that helm isn't Year 2 yet), 1 hit instant kills with no bonus armor. They can choose between more accuracy and a small AoE, and can get increased range. Hammer of Sol gets twice as many 1 hit ranged kills with AoE that track and heal them. Fist of Havoc has 1 shot, close range AoE Stormtrance can kill on activation (honestly, this is very short range), chain further, last a bit, has bonus armor and is midrange, and takes several hits to kill someone. Must be channeled, jumping cancels the channel, and it's pretty finicky about targeting. Hammer of Sol is long range, has more bonus armor, heals, AoE kills, tracking, and is 1 hit to kill. Shadowshot is kill on the arrow hit, bonus armor while firing, and tethers for a long time or has shared (reduced) damage or 3 shots with reduced range and duration. Slows and suppresses, but rather easy to turn and shoot the Hunter anyway. Also has terrible tracking. Hammer of Sol kills on hit with AoE, has twice as many shots with healing and bonus armor for the duration. Sunbreakers can stack more benefits on their super than anyone else. In any comparison, Hammer of Sol wins by a landslide. Stormtrance comes closest, but still loses. You have this problem of taking everything individually and making silly comparisons (IE comparing Bladedancer health regen or addressing bonus armor). See, if the Titan only had the health regen or was just the best on armor, nobody would care. It's the combination of everything that makes it superior, and that's why it needs to get taken down a notch. One of those benefits needs to go out the window. [quote][quote]Sunbreakers are ruining the once beautiful Crucible.[/quote] You're almost completely correct. I think this what you meant to say: Sunbreakers are ruining the once [b]corrupt[/b] Crucible. Sunbreakers are obliterating the unfair monopoly Warlocks and Hunters once held over the Crucible grounds. Hunters and Warlocks have enjoyed PVP [u]domination[/u] throughout all of Year 1 due to their PVP tailored Supers. Titans, on the other hand, had one decent sub-class for PVP (Striker) and one pathetic PVP sub-class (Defender). Hunters and Warlocks simply upset that they no longer can abuse the powerless Titan.[/quote] I'm sorry you suck at Striker and Defender. Some of the best times I've had in PvP are taking 2 Defenders on a 6v6 team and laughing at the constant bubbles. Last time Mayhem Clash was the weekly (before this week), I had a team of 3 Defender Titans on Vertigo stacking their bubbles. We won by around 50,000 points. It remains the largest margin by far that I've ever seen a team win by in Mayhem Clash, and that includes teams I've seen of 4x Sunbreakers. By the way, you're kidding, right? Warlocks had PvP-tailored Supers? Sunsinger was a pain in the ass, and while Nova Bomb was awesome sometimes for Control, good luck getting anyone grouped in the other modes (much like Striker, but Strikers were harder to kill with their Super activated). [quote]Bungie recognized the imbalance in PVP and addressed the issue perfectly in the creation of the Sunbreaker.[/quote] Swinging the pendulum the other way isn't balancing. Whether the pendulum is on the left or right, it's still unbalanced.
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Here is my problem with the "Titans are tanks" argument. Destiny doesn't really have tanks or DPS classes, but for the sake of argument we will except that for just a moment. So fine, Titans are tanks and Hunters are damage-dealers. But the damage output from seven HoS hits is much higher than three GG shots. We can't have the tanks out-damaging the damage dealers, right? I think the base damage of HoS is around 250. To ensure Hunters have higher damage to offset their lower resilience, we'll take eight hammers as our baseline. 250 * 8 = 2000 damage. Divide that into three GG shots, and: 2000 / 3 = 667 damage per shot, approximately. The current base damage for GG is what? 380? 390? We're back to one-shotting Titans again. And we could do similar with nearly every other damage-focused subclass in the game. Which, frankly, is exactly what I hope will happen.
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5 답변작성자: Verminax 10/23/2015 3:48:08 PMI read up to your first two points and stopped. Your wrong. So lets review those two points, shall we? People bitching about armor on Sunbreakers? Are you daft? While we do point it out. The actuall target of our bitching lies not in your armor amount. But the damage mediation is rediculous. You can survive a nova bomb or a fist at base activation if used right. But totally balanced. While you want to put a true mmo comparison up that doesnt work. Titans armor? Warlocks recov and hunters agility? That logic only works when a titan can actually tank continous stacks of damage. A warlock can be put to the point of unkillable based on health regen, and hunters blinking across maps. You cant apply full mmo logic to a fps. Doesnt work. Sooo bye bye to your first point. Unto destroying your second point. Which is far easier. Did you just compare cautarize to hungering blade? Ok lemme explain why bladedancing is fair and yours is aggravating. Yours procs offa a melee, a grenade, etc. Blade ONLY procs with a SUPER kill. But they are balanced. Oh wait. They are not. Now you say a skill that can be proced only in super is ballanced with something that procs out of it? At the same proc rate and can proc in the super as well? I explain it enough for you? Stop riding Zaphallas dick.
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6 답변
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3 답변You've addressed the crap complaints but you've not addressed the real issues. I heard this was patched but last I checked, they DO in fact have increased armor. Golden gun was designed to be a one shot kill. Period. Yet when a sunbreaker super is active, it takes two. The recoil on that gun means that if the Titan is a good shot, no Hunter has a DREAM of taking down that titan (baring a shadow shot). Perhaps this is different for the other classes, I wouldn't know. And as for that nonsense about titans being unfit for crucible until now, I won't even justify that with a full response. The fact is that whenever people hear the new titan class activate, they groan because it'll take a bad Titan or fair amount of luck to take him down or even escape his wrath. Most of (if not all) his opponents are definitely going down. Lastly, it's a lot more likely that everyone is complaining about the sun breaker because it's overused as much as overpowered. Or we could just call the majority of the community butt hurt and dishonest like you did.
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2 답변I think what people are complaining about is the overshield not the armor. The Perk is called Fire Keeper. That means for one entire health bar the Titan cannot have a Crit against them. The Shield needs knocked off just like in PVE. Once that is gone it only takes 1 or 2 head shots at most from a sniper rifle to kill a Sun Titan. The only way that Fire Keeper is effective is if you are standing still in a fire spot. You can create another one if your first one breaks but you have to waste a hammer. The easiest way to avoid this is to not stand in front of the Titan while he standing in one spot throwing the hammers. If you are the unlucky one who is the reason why he popped his super than so be it. However if you are no where near the Titan and you run at him with bad intentions and a pistol then you deserve a hammer. Hunters can shut down every super in the game. Every single class now has a PvP subclass. Each one has its advantages. Hunters can shut down supers and have stealth and speed. Warlocks are tanks that can now shoot lighting. Titans are good at holding objectives and choke points. The Tracking on the hammer doesnt track near as far as a fusion grenade does. Not to mention the one easiest way to stop a Sunbreaker from killing you. Use your ears. There is literally only 3 maps in the whole game where you cant hear when any Titan pops their super. You know it happens way beforehand. All you got to do is slow down and wait about 15 seconds.
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2 답변I've had a Titan a week after the game came out and hunters and warlocks used to dominate pvp so let's put this straight warlocks and hunters don't like the fact that someone who has no unfair advantage like teleport or many subclass choices that change the gameplay don't like it how the person the race they once used to destroy , look down upon and descriminate against has got a subclass that allows them to fight back he's also right it's not like warlocks are armoured or hunters a warlock has a robe made out of cloth and stuff a hunter has a thin layer of armour but what does a Titan have ? Oh yes chest plates made out of steel yea I think your more likely to strive a gun fight in a robe k then Titans are made to be armoured tanks you can't have everything warlocks and hunters have teleport the hunter has different jumps the hunter can track behind walls while having a better radar the warlock can get armour which makes them harder to kill in super charge and can hover and has different grenades what does the Titan get the same jumps in every subclass the weakest melee the worst recovery and agility re cycled grenades from old classes and stats that change the agility armour and recovery a bit just remember at least you get teleport and new grenades we just got your recycled ones and just face you can't have good recovery , armour and agility all in one Titans were made to be ARMOURED just look at the taken King trailer like smith himself said they designed the sunstriker to be something you would run away from and look at the e3 trailer they said the Titan is supposed to be an armoured tank so tell me again what's op that you destroyed us I year one and got supers much more better or we can throw 2 extra hammers at the expense of some really helpful perks or that our armour super armour is exactly the same as blade dancers but of course you don't like that Titans get something that makes them a threat and remember they were made to be armoured not warlock or hunters TITANS
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Ok so you say they get the same armor as a blade dancer. That armor is a % based extra armor. So the titan get more armor then the hunter and warlock right? Then we have the "no extra shield" What is that BLUE -blam!-ING THING COVERING THE HEALTH/ARMOR bar on a Sunbreaker titan? And why the hell does it come back after I shoot it down? And a bladedancer has to choose between "Longer super" or "Health after kill" and the super is about half the duration compared to the sunbreaker. And on top of this the sunbreaker is a RANGED attack. Unless you also add in the ONE HIT R1. so basically with the R1 it turns into a Bladedancer with a ranged blaster cannon. AAAAAND on top of this a blade dancer has to go melee range and can be blasted with a -blam!-ing shotgun. Sometimes ONESHOTTED with a shotgun. Meanwhile Sunbreaker can just toss 2 hammers at the corner where someone is waiting for him and BAAAAM he diededededededed. So basically it does need a freaking nerf. Less hammers or shorter duration. With a Gunslinger I get 3 shots NO armor. And yes yes yes for gods sake IT SHOOTS STRAIGHT but I would rather have 8 shots that go slightly crooked. Its damn near impossible to get a 6 killspree with a gunslinger but Holyshit is it easy with both the Sunbreaker and the Stormcaller since both of their damn supers last for about 4 years and have multiple shots. If you compare the blade dancer duration to both of them the blade dancer super is half gone by the time you reach the enemy. But sunbreaker/stormcaller you can pop when u spawn and leasurly run across almost any map and STILL get a freaking multikill.
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2 답변[quote]Just wait till you have a team of 3 sun breakers in trials, the you guys will see how OP it truly is
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Personally, I love the new subclass. i don't have a main, i use all three characters and its nice to see the sunbreaker bring some use to my dusty titan. however, i do think its a little op, i think they should keep all the abilities, and keep it deadly and feared. but i think they could simply lower a few stats. i cant tell you how many times i wasn't on my my titan and had bounty of some sort and said "this would be a piece of cake if i was on my titan.' i do think its unbalanced, but only to the point where a few minuscule changes would make it great.
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2 답변I just have question? Why is everyone just comparing sun breaker to the old warlock and hunter subclasses? Lol its its odd that no one complains about storm caller getting 5 kills and have landfall which is pretty much like a foh. Or hunter subclass that takes anyone out of there super and can mark people around walls with scout perk. I think they all have there advantages if you use them right. I honestly don't mind when I get kills by a super they are supposed to kill lol
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7 답변You're arguing things here in isolation and not looking at the bigger picture - which is currently HoS has the benefits of pretty much all the other mobile supers without the drawbacks. Gunslingers and Bladedancers are glass cannons. Oodles of damage potential but easy to kill. Sunsingers are tanks with little lethality. They can take an absolute beating but don't give much back. Sunbreakers have the best of both, none of the weaknesses, and with skills that synergise especially well. Kills regening health on a crazily hard to kill opponent that can easily kill opponents both near and far. That isn't slightly comparable to the Bladedancer's hungering blade. Really, you have to have an agenda or be blinkered to think otherwise. I could go on - but this pretty much sums up the whole post.
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I appreciate the time that you put into this post but I main Hunter and I have grown accustomed to fighting mostly other hunters so that's what I'm used to with an occasional warlock here and there... It sucks to have to deal with another tough class on the battlefield, it was so much fun running all over people playing with the disadvantaged Titan class. I don't play games to think or learn counters, I play to OWN NUBS!! I don't care about any of your arguments because HOS kills me and it upsets me!!!!
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4 답변This is truly eye opening. I mean shit. I never would have guessed that a Titan would say that HoS is perfectly fine the way it is. I get you like playing w it. I would to, but it's stupid op compared to every other super dude.
