Announcement: with the realization that Thorn is only part of the overarching issues affecting endgame pvp, I've decided to do a much larger analysis of Crucible, Iron Banner, and Trials of Osiris, to make a list of points that can be used to improve the pvp experience for everyone. I've made a PvP suggestion box post to gain additional input from the community. Would greatly appreciate your opinions. Here's the [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/129236498/0/0]link[/url] ONTO THE RANT! (If you're prone to "TL:DR", don't even bother reading) With the recent addition of Trials of Osiris, I think a certain message is ringing clearer than ever and that message is this: THORN BREAKS THE CRUCIBLE. Now, before you jump to the comments with a counter argument you have saved to your paste function, I'd consider it a courtesy for you to read the rest of the post. I don't know what you define game breaking as, but I consider it this: if you can point to one thing in a game, whether it be a fighting game combo that bans the character from being used in tournaments (*cough*ssbb Meta Knight*cough*), one ability, class build (Knight Templar in DAI) farming method (FE:A dlc), or in our case, one weapon, and you can be justified in saying that if it were not in the game, the whole experience would be changed (likely meaning it's harder for you), then that's what I consider game breaking. With that definition in mind, I think it's safe to say Thorn does a Mortal Kombat fatality and breaks Destiny's pvp content in half. You can't go two games without seeing this gun. On the crucible modes with higher stakes, IB and ToO, it's in easily more than 90 percent of all matches. People bail before the match starts because they see 3 34 sunsingers with this weapon, and don't want to waste the mercy they bought (not saying I condone this, just that I understand why). It's main counter is to be better at using it than your opponent, because most players can't counter it with other weapons, making it the most used gun in the crucible, more than Suros or the Vex ever were, and they were also both major offenders in shifting the game's balance, and as a result, they were heavily nerfed. However, because of how horrible it was to use in relation to how tedious it was to get, Bungie buffed thorn to an even stronger standing, and for months it has dominated the crucible with impunity, and Bungie has made no effort to rebalance it, or even acknowledge the THOUSANDS of posts about it being overpowered because of what, they don't want to admit they made a mistake? Because there is no way that any of them can play their own -blam!-ing game and not notice how much of an issue it is. People make it a point of pride to say they've gone flawless without it. This is because it taints the achievement to use it, just as it taints everything else it touches, both in lore and gameplay, just as it taints this entire game. The thorn is broken. If it were just to disappear tomorrow, all of pvp would change. You can't deny this. That is why it should be made a priority to be properly balanced, so we can finally move on from this ridiculously over buffed gun and closer to a crucible where victory is dependent on a player's or a team's skill with a greater variety of weapons, ones they as individuals have earned and have the right to use to carve their path to becoming legend. Edit 1: the main argument that's being made in response to this is that there are many other weapons, mostly exotics, that would simply take Thorn's place as it took Suros's, and there are. I mainly wanted to use this thread to open up discussion on how we can gain a balanced crucible where a greater variety of weapons are viable to use. I'd personally love to go back to using my Vanquisher, her right hand, or even some of my legendary scout rifles and hand cannons, but the current state of weapon balance doesn't allow that for pvp, because for the most part (note the indicator of a general statement, as this is doubles as acknowledgement that there are always exceptions) there are a handful of exotics that dominate the crucible, either because they have really low TTK's in a wide range of circumstances, their perks directly increase your survivability chances, or in the case of Thorn DoT, drastically lower them. Again, this shouldn't be a call to nerf one weapon, but to reassess weapon balance overall. Bungie themselves has said that no one weapon should feel like the only choice for success, and that a small group of weapons should not rule supreme. Edit 2: also want to say, I don't even want thorn truly nerfed. I recognize how it can still spice up gameplay and add a little bit more depth to the pvp experience, but that depth is lost when so many people feel like they're forced to use it in order to do well. This is why it shouldn't be nerfed, per se, but brought in line with other weapons. An ideal solution would be to buff legendaries just enough to stand on equal ground with exotics, while exotic perks still being useful enough to change dynamics in the relationship between enemy players, and how you approach an engagement to determine who controls the battle.