This is how the game has been since the very beginning. YOU are in OUR game that has been like this since it was created. Especially with the genre of game we're playing. In fact, that's just gaming in general and the concept of endgame.

[quote]This is how the game has been since the very beginning.[/quote] Except the only "good reward" was the raid exotic; before adepts, timelosts, or tier 5s making everything "endgame". That wasn't what my comment was about; it was about how strangers have no business worrying about what other strangers they never met play with. We're waaayyyy past the "git gud"/"earn your pixels like a real job" approach. [quote]YOU are in OUR game that has been like this since it was created. Especially with the genre of game we're playing. In fact, that's just gaming in general and the concept of endgame.[/quote] I'm not in anyone's game but bungie's. This game needs to go back to the genre of "looter shooter" and get away from the "team mimic puzzle solution" genre.

[quote][quote]This is how the game has been since the very beginning.[/quote] Except the only "good reward" was the raid exotic; before adepts, timelosts, or tier 5s making everything "endgame". That wasn't what my comment was about; it was about how strangers have no business worrying about what other strangers they never met play with. We're waaayyyy past the "git gud"/"earn your pixels like a real job" approach. [quote]YOU are in OUR game that has been like this since it was created. Especially with the genre of game we're playing. In fact, that's just gaming in general and the concept of endgame.[/quote] I'm not in anyone's game but bungie's. This game needs to go back to the genre of "looter shooter" and get away from the "team mimic puzzle solution" genre.[/quote] If they're just pixels on the screen, then surely you can live without them from NOT doing the hardest things in the game. Its simple. You don't do the hardest things in the game, you don't get all of the loot or better loot. That's always how it worked. People also harass those who actually took the time to learn the game and earn their loot. If you find this to be the job then this game isn't for you. Leave.

[quote]. Leave.[/quote] Good answer! That's what the other [b]several million[/b] players have done!

Good. Maybe the addicts that say they hate the game but continue to play will actually make Bungie do something of substance. People leaving is a good thing because it shows that they need to change their stuff. The concept of getting better loot for doing harder activities is not one of them. And if any player hates that concept, they should have never touched this game to begin with. Or any game with loot for that matter.

[quote]Good. Maybe the addicts that say they hate the game but continue to play will actually make Bungie do something of substance. People leaving is a good thing because it shows that they need to change their stuff. The concept of getting better loot for doing harder activities is not one of them. And if any player hates that concept, they should have never touched this game to begin with. Or any game with loot for that matter.[/quote] My if that's not "the pot calling the kettle black". "Addicts" are the ones who think this game is a job, that you have to "earn" pixels, can't play anything but "hard" activities. Customers asking for a more rewarding "fun" game aren't the problem. This game started with a whole different gameplay structure than what is currently being implemented. People are leaving because of the "don't like it play something else" dorks and they have their heads too far up their own -blam!-es to see they're the problem.

[quote][quote]Good. Maybe the addicts that say they hate the game but continue to play will actually make Bungie do something of substance. People leaving is a good thing because it shows that they need to change their stuff. The concept of getting better loot for doing harder activities is not one of them. And if any player hates that concept, they should have never touched this game to begin with. Or any game with loot for that matter.[/quote] My if that's not "the pot calling the kettle black". "Addicts" are the ones who think this game is a job, that you have to "earn" pixels, can't play anything but "hard" activities. Customers asking for a more rewarding "fun" game aren't the problem. This game started with a whole different gameplay structure than what is currently being implemented. People are leaving because of the "don't like it play something else" dorks and they have their heads too far up their own -blam!-es to see they're the problem.[/quote] Addicts are people who do something that is a detriment to their health and mindset. Like the people that hate the game and complain about it while still playing it. People who legitimately enjoy the game arent addicts just by enjoying it and playing. I had the best times coming home from work and getting on with the boys and doing raids together. Don't give me that garbage of it being a "job" when I worked in a nursing home at full time and still was able to earn the loot. Y'know. The concept of the game that has existed for 10 years. People use the addict/no life argument because they have no concept of time management to be able to pull off being successful in things that matter vs free time activities so they blame others for their shortcomings. You have the option to NOT do the hardest stuff. You can literally choose the difficulty of the activities you play and not have to worry about getting every single crumb of loot. Saying "if you dont like it then leave" is just common sense. Put your play time where your mouth is. Show Bungie that they need to do something to get players back or else people will leave. Again the concept of having loot locked behind harder activities isn't a bad thing and never will be. It's been like that since day one. The very concept of this game. Edit: also I never said that the entire game needed to be hard. You still earn loot at easier difficulties. The only thing that changes is loot quality. And I don't think people should have ever been able to get to max power without touching endgame.

[quote]People who legitimately enjoy the game arent addicts just by enjoying it and playing.[/quote] Spoken like a true addict. "It's not me, it's you the game is perfect." Just because people give feedback you don't agree with for a product doesn't mean "they're complaining". [quote]I had the best times coming home from work and getting on with the boys and doing raids together.[/quote] So did a lot of other people; until it changed. Never said i didn't. [quote]You have the option to NOT do the hardest stuff. You can literally choose the difficulty of the activities you play and not have to worry about getting every single crumb of loot.[/quote] Never said i could or couldn't do anything. I'm not the only person who plays this game. [quote]Saying "if you dont like it then leave" is just common sense.[/quote] No it isn't and unfortunately that phrase (common sense)has lost all meaning.

[quote][quote]People who legitimately enjoy the game arent addicts just by enjoying it and playing.[/quote] Spoken like a true addict. "It's not me, it's you the game is perfect." Just because people give feedback you don't agree with for a product doesn't mean "they're complaining". [quote]I had the best times coming home from work and getting on with the boys and doing raids together.[/quote] So did a lot of other people; until it changed. Never said i didn't. [quote]You have the option to NOT do the hardest stuff. You can literally choose the difficulty of the activities you play and not have to worry about getting every single crumb of loot.[/quote] Never said i could or couldn't do anything. I'm not the only person who plays this game. [quote]Saying "if you dont like it then leave" is just common sense.[/quote] No it isn't and unfortunately that phrase (common sense)has lost all meaning.[/quote] Addict- physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects. So if you feel compelled to play the game and get discontent from not playing the game, you are an addict. If you simply enjoy playing a game how it's designed, that is normal engagement. People still do feel that. It's just that more and more people think they're entitled to get things that other players got without doing the necessary requirements to get them. You commenting and not understanding the concept of harder activity= better loot, than I'm going to just guess you CAN'T because there would be no reason to call someone an addict for playing the game how it's been designed since the beginning. You wouldn't be calling for a change that would not make destiny, well, destiny. And if you CAN, that would also make you an addict by your own definition for simply playing the game It is common sense. You don't like doing something so you stop doing it. What is wrong with you? Oh right. That would make you an addict for not understanding that concept. Also YOURE still playing the game. So by your OWN definition, you're an addict.

[quote]Addict- physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects. So if you feel compelled to play the game and get discontent from not playing the game, you are an addict. If you simply enjoy playing a game how it's designed, that is normal engagement. People still do feel that. It's just that more and more people think they're entitled to get things that other players got without doing the necessary requirements to get them. [/quote] Yes, like people who think everything should be "hard" mode on this game so that small hit of dopamine [b]they[/b] feel upon completion is the reward. Unaware that feeling isn't joy but relief the activity is over. [quote]You commenting and not understanding the concept of harder activity= better loot, than I'm going to just guess you CAN'T because there would be no reason to call someone an addict for playing the game how it's been designed since the beginning. You wouldn't be calling for a change that would not make destiny, well, destiny. And if you CAN, that would also make you an addict by your own definition for simply playing the game It is common sense. You don't like doing something so you stop doing it. What is wrong with you? Oh right. That would make you an addict for not understanding that concept. Also YOURE still playing the game. So by your OWN definition, you're an addict.[/quote] Nice "gotcha"; but i made it to rank 9/430 with 2 friends doing starcrosseed before September, but I'm only 440 now since I've only been playing about 1 hour a week the last 6-7 weeks. I'll never hit 550. I jump on look at Tess offerings, do a thing then logoff. I have all the raid exotics except 2 and all the dungeon exotics except 1. I have a raid title(VoG/Cursebreaker for last wish/Mmxix first title required raids). Point being I didn't have to have [b]all[/b] the titles and exotics, I don't have to have all adepts, I don't have to be 550- because all that extra nonsense wasn't in D1 or Vanilla D2, so I'm not that much of an addict. I've been through [b]the steps[/b] so I'm well aware when something is manipulative like this game's slot machine design.

[quote][quote]Addict- physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects. So if you feel compelled to play the game and get discontent from not playing the game, you are an addict. If you simply enjoy playing a game how it's designed, that is normal engagement. People still do feel that. It's just that more and more people think they're entitled to get things that other players got without doing the necessary requirements to get them. [/quote] Yes, like people who think everything should be "hard" mode on this game so that small hit of dopamine [b]they[/b] feel upon completion is the reward. Unaware that feeling isn't joy but relief the activity is over. [quote]You commenting and not understanding the concept of harder activity= better loot, than I'm going to just guess you CAN'T because there would be no reason to call someone an addict for playing the game how it's been designed since the beginning. You wouldn't be calling for a change that would not make destiny, well, destiny. And if you CAN, that would also make you an addict by your own definition for simply playing the game It is common sense. You don't like doing something so you stop doing it. What is wrong with you? Oh right. That would make you an addict for not understanding that concept. Also YOURE still playing the game. So by your OWN definition, you're an addict.[/quote] Nice "gotcha"; but i made it to rank 9/430 with 2 friends doing starcrosseed before September, but I'm only 440 now since I've only been playing about 1 hour a week the last 6-7 weeks. I'll never hit 550. I jump on look at Tess offerings, do a thing then logoff. I have all the raid exotics except 2 and all the dungeon exotics except 1. I have a raid title(VoG/Cursebreaker for last wish/Mmxix first title required raids). Point being I didn't have to have [b]all[/b] the titles and exotics, I don't have to have all adepts, I don't have to be 550- because all that extra nonsense wasn't in D1 or Vanilla D2, so I'm not that much of an addict. I've been through [b]the steps[/b] so I'm well aware when something is manipulative like this game's slot machine design.[/quote] I never said that everything needs to be hard. There are activities for both parties that are looking for a challenge and those who do not. As well as loot for those who want a challenge and for those who do not. Hit of dopamine while playing and completing something. Yes that is indeed what video games are for. When you beat a dark souls boss? Or getting a rare item. That is the concept of video games. Whether you complete a piss easy piece of content or not. Brother this game has been a slot machine since the beginning. That's the point of a looter shooter. What makes YOU not an addict and ME an addict? And the whole point of the post is to say you shouldn't get everything for doing piss easy content. That's normal in video games. What are you even arguing here?

[quote]. What are you even arguing here?[/quote] Exactly. You commented on my observation. What does it matter what strangers do in a game, or what loot they have, or whether they play "piss easy" like you and OP said, or it's handed to them? Why the gatekeeping? I never said you were an addict, i just opined that keeping strangers you'll never meet from pixels and acting like feedback about the product you don't agree with is complaining, is addict behavior.

[quote][quote]. What are you even arguing here?[/quote] Exactly. You commented on my observation. What does it matter what strangers do in a game, or what loot they have, or whether they play "piss easy" like you and OP said, or it's handed to them? Why the gatekeeping? I never said you were an addict, i just opined that keeping strangers you'll never meet from pixels and acting like feedback about the product you don't agree with is complaining, is addict behavior.[/quote] Because it goes against the genre of the game you're playing and endgame wouldn't exist. There would be no reason to have raids or dungeons and Bungie would just have strikes with patrol enemies. There should always be content and loot dedicated for people who want to challenge themselves. It's not gatekeeping. People are free to do the content and learn like everyone else did. If players aren't willing to do so, that's on them. Which, again, is how this game has always worked. Destiny has always been built around earning gear through challenge not just having everything available to everyone. When loot that’s supposed to symbolize skill, coordination, or perseverance is made easily obtainable, it devalues both the time of players who put in that effort and the core loop that keeps Destiny interesting. Casual players already have plenty of accessible content story missions, strikes, seasonal activities, etc. Exclusive loot isn’t gatekeeping; it’s incentive. It gives everyone something to work toward, and that’s what keeps the game alive.” And yes you did call me an addict. You literally said "spoken like a true addict.".

[quote]Because it goes against the genre of the game you're playing and endgame wouldn't exist. There would be no reason to have raids or dungeons and Bungie would just have strikes with patrol enemies.[/quote] The "genre" is supposed to be "looter", not "team watch video and copy" Good. Maybe 98% of customers wouldn't have quit. Raids and dungeons should have been able to be done with bots/matchmaking from day 1, but it's likely you'll disagree because [i]game perfect.[/i] Again, we're waaayyyy past "git gud". The game should have changed a long time ago. It's [b] clearly [/b] not "good" at the moment. [quote]There should always be content and loot dedicated for people who want to challenge themselves. [/quote] Cool, never said there shouldn't be, but this was never souls/diablo. Should have just been cosmetics/emblem for a couple extra enemies not the whole endgame focus. [quote]It's not gatekeeping. People are free to do the content and learn like everyone else did. If players aren't willing to do so, that's on them. Which, again, is how this game has always worked. [/quote] This is where the disconnect happens; the whole "don't like it don't do it" crowd [b]has won.[/b] [u]Nobody is doing it.[/u] [quote]. You literally said "spoken like a [/quote] No, "like a" is not the same as saying you are. That's your decision to make.

[quote]The "genre" is supposed to be "looter", not "team watch video and copy" Good. Maybe 98% of customers wouldn't have quit. Raids and dungeons should have been able to be done with bots/matchmaking from day 1, but it's likely you'll disagree because [i]game perfect.[/i][/quote] It's also a multiplayer game. I'm on the fence of matchmaking raids. I also don't think it's a bad thing if people want to expedite the process of learning a raid by looking at a guide. Guides make endgame more accessible and brings a sense of community to the game. People can always NOT look up a guide and make their own blind group with randoms. I know for a fact that doing a raid blind is not the norm and you know DANG well too I never said the game is perfect. Stop being disingenuous. [quote]Again, we're waaayyyy past "git gud". The game should have changed a long time ago. It's [b] clearly [/b] not "good" at the moment.[/quote] With higher end content, yes it is. At a certain point, it's a players fault for not being good enough to do an activity or not taking the time to be good. The whole point in destiny is to get loot and, in turn, incentives people to get better and take on challenges. That's not a bad thing. If it was, you wouldn't have touched endgame or be in an endgame clan. That's what incentives players to play. That's true for most games like this. [quote]Cool, never said there shouldn't be, but this was never souls/diablo. Should have just been cosmetics/emblem for a couple extra enemies not the whole endgame focus.[/quote] You wouldn't be arguing with me if you genuinely believed this. That's not how endgame has ever worked in any game I can think of. Usually people who say this type of stuff are shot down by the community. [quote]This is where the disconnect happens; the whole "don't like it don't do it" crowd [b]has won.[/b] [u]Nobody is doing it.[/u][/quote] Why are you doing things you don't like? That's dumb. Also the destiny LFG discord is alive and well. [quote]No, "like a" is not the same as saying you are. That's your decision to make.[/quote] Then why bring up addiction in the first place? You implied if by saying that I'm talking like one. That type of phrasing is ALWAYS implied. Again, stop being disingenuous.

[quote][quote]No, "like a" is not the same as saying you are. That's your decision to make.[/quote] Then why bring up addiction in the first place? You implied if by saying that I'm talking like one. That type of phrasing is ALWAYS implied.[/quote] Because you seemed to have missed the whole point. I want the game to be played by more people and i want it to be more "fun". I replied to OP with an opinion that the game should be open to more players by being more enjoyable; and you've spent the better part of the evening trying to argue that my opinion is wrong; like i walked in and started pouring out your alcohol stash.

No. You didn't say that. You disagreed with someone saying that the best loot shouldn't be given for doing piss easy content and said that's why people are leaving. It's not. Because the game would be dead WAY before Edge of Fate. People are leaving because: - Leveling isn't content and it's EXTREMELY slow - Bullet Sponges are terrible - Delta Scaling is terrible and we should be able to over level so that if people want to have higher end content to be easier, they can substitute the difficulty with perseverance through XP grinding like we used to be able to. OVER LEVELING needs to come back. - Loot is not even worth grinding for regardless of causal or hardcore content - The portal just... sucks. - Bugs.... so many bugs and error codes - Lack of quality content - Constantly changing how the game works and making that the "content" rather than sticking to a set formula in an attempt to please the masses - Higher ups not listening - Nerfs I want Destiny to grow too but not by stripping away the systems that define it. The reason Destiny has lasted this long is because it rewards mastery, coordination, and dedication. If we flatten everything so nobody ever has to ‘get better’ or engage with the genre’s mechanics, we stop playing Destiny and start playing a generic shooter with loot icons. Growth shouldn’t come from watering down the game’s identity, it should come from teaching, improving accessibility, and giving players clear paths to grow into that higher-end content. That’s how you expand the player base and keep the game’s soul intact. But Bungie is NOT doing that. We have little content and the content is just used to level up which is not good. Destiny has always been about that dopamine hit. That's why many players got into the game and endgame in the first place. A community being a community and having guides, an incentive to do harder activities with loot on mind (very normal in this games) and inspiring players to get together was never a bad thing. That's what kept the game alive. The above reason are why this game is in a bad state.

[quote]No. You didn't say that. You disagreed with someone saying that the best loot shouldn't be given for doing piss easy content and said that's why people are leaving.[/quote] That's not exactly what i said. I said "that's why the game is the way it is now" meaning [b]strangers have no business worried about what strangers have in a videogame[/b] or how they got it. That's it - my opinion. All the other stuff was your implications.

[quote][quote]No. You didn't say that. You disagreed with someone saying that the best loot shouldn't be given for doing piss easy content and said that's why people are leaving.[/quote] That's not exactly what i said. I said "that's why the game is the way it is now" meaning [b]strangers have no business worried about what strangers have in a videogame[/b] or how they got it. That's it - my opinion. All the other stuff was your implications.[/quote] You don’t need to care what strangers have but the game still cares. Making rewards feel earned keeps the whole system alive, for everyone, not just a handful of grinders. You made major suggestions in this chain that were never a problem because all the things you talked about were never problems before Edge of Fate. And yes strangers should care if both people are playing the same game. What you're suggesting is literally unfair.

[quote]. Making rewards feel earned keeps the whole system alive, for everyone, not just a handful of grinders.. What you're suggesting is literally unfair.[/quote] Again, no. I'm moving on after this. You literally haven't understood anything about what was said. Players have quit because nobody wants to play "ultimate" all the time to "earn" tier 5s, so they are leaving. [b]Y'all "don't like it play something else" dorks won[/b]. The things before EoF were more approachable because you didn't have to do GMs [b]all the time[/b] to get good armor. That's never been fun and the data has proven it every season. If you think you have to "earn" stuff in a game, and that this game isn't the problem and [i][b]always has been[/b][/i] as to why they [b]keep losing customers[/b]; there's no point in continuing this conversation because my opinion is not going to change. Yours likely isn't either. Good evening.

Earning things has been in the game since it's inception. That's the point of a looter shooter and endgame. I don't know why someone who played endgame would think this and work towards things like titles if you genuinely believed this. You contradicted yourself so many times here.

[quote]Earning things has been in the game since it's inception. That's the point of a looter shooter. I don't know why someone who played endgame would think this.[/quote] Omg That's not the point - Legend of Acrius and other things had quests, to earn them yes. But you didn't have to play the raid on "[b]Ultimate[/b]" mode to get it, and some people [b]bought it from the tower kiosk[/b], and [b]i think buying it was fine because i don't know the person or care how they got it.[/b] I want everyone to be able [b]to buy everything from the tower kiosk[/b] because it's a video game and its none of my [b]or your[/b] business. Edit: That's why i said this game has always been the problem. Good evening. Again.

Then there's no point in playing the game. No incentive to do ANYTHING. That's the game you're afrer. That's a stupid idea. The only reason it's in the kiosk is because the activity to get it was removed, genius. If the raid was still in the game, you bet your SWEET BIPPY the quest would still be in the game. And it doesn't matter if it was a quest. You still had to do the raid in order to get it and the catalyst. Also saying "You should get the best loot from the harder parts of the game" never once implied I liked the way we get loot now. I never defended the loot system we have NOW. I said that better loot should be granted from harder activities. Never once did I defend the ultimates and armor acquisition. That literally can apply to PRE EDGE OF FATE.

[quote]Then there's no point in playing the game.[/quote] Fun. Good evening again. Again.