🤨 the lore entries describe the Witness using the light within the traveler to create the dread. Not some long time ago

[quote]🤨 the lore entries describe the Witness using the light within the traveler to create the dread. Not some long time ago[/quote] And how did he get it? Not something you pick up at Lowe’s

It forced this using the connection gained from the Veil and the Traveler That’s how it was able to get in and had power over the Traveler

So the Darkness artifact magically allowed Light access. Despite Darkness never being able to do that and Darkness users have had fragments of the Shell to play with and never could either. No wonder the “finale” was garbage.

The Veil is not an artifact but is an entity related to the Traveler, forcing their connection gave the Witness the ability to reshape reality - using the physical forces combined with the mental forces. Nothing about that statement automatically insinuates that a darkness user with no ghost could tap into the light. You are pulling that idea out of nowhere

Artifact. Inanimate object. The Traveler moves and speaks, the Veil doesn’t. The connection allowed him entrance into the Pale Heart. It was taking control of the Light within, combined with his very imperfect control of Darkness, to reshape reality. Except that’s what he did. He used Light with no Ghost simply by being inside the Traveler. And no one else could use Light inside there that wasn’t a Lightbearer.

I guess I should have been more specific and said [i]“it doesn’t insinuate any [b]average[/b] darkness user with no ghost could take control of the light”[/i] Additionally, we are still learning about the Veil, and it’s not an inanimate object. It’s a powerful entity and it’s the key to the Pale Heart. Which is a result of consciousness (dark) being given form by matter (light) keep in mind the multiple times the Witness took control of our ghost, to speak through him and use him to make the connection between the Veil and the Traveler. So clearly there’s a connection between the Traveler and the Veil that the Witness can exploit. The Witness is a multi billion years old entity, it’s not some Joe Schmoe with the darkness - it has very precise control of darkness. Recall it easily slicing the ships that got close in Lightfall. The Witness is the first knife, its cutting into the light to force it to its will. Which is very different from a Guardian who was gifted the light and doesn’t twist it

And that’s predicated on what? Cause we’ve been told that the Light can’t be taken and all attempts we’ve seen and heard of have failed. It’s an entity that doesn’t move, communicate or do anything besides be a gateway and storage device? I don’t see any connection. The Veil is the key to opening the portal to the Traveler and holds memories. Opening a dimensional gateway? We’ve seen Darkness do it but not light. Memories? That’s part of the Darkness’ domain. So where’s the connection that using the Veil grants access to Light? As for Ghosts, the connection was tenuously made in LF with the river of souls talk in regards to Strand. Ghosts are called companion souls. And are fragments of the Travelers consciousness per the Ghost lorebook page We before Us Hence why he could influence them. The Witness cutting power is from Resonate. Doesn’t mean he can use Light, unrelated. All Bungie did was insert a generic Deus Ex Machina villain cause they didn’t have time to implement a story with the Winnower and Gardener before the ten year deadline. That’s why pre TFs Bungie did an interview downplaying Unveiling but post companion campaign showed the Winnower talking to us again. After saying it never did before. Bad writing, period.

Any past attempts at “taking the light” have failed on some level Though Ghaul was able to do it temporarily. Example, in the boss fight we see Ghaul form solar blades. This form of taking light corrupted it. Unlike Savathun who was granted the light, which is why the ghost refers to the light in her throne world as “pure light”, and not corrupted. Ghaul’s attempt was ultimately unsuccessful because he did not have the means. Which is why the traveler woke up and was able to destroy him with ease. ————————————————————— The Veil is an entity, just because we have not successfully communicated with it does not mean it cannot happen yet. It’s well established in the game through dialogue that it’s an entity. [i]“Their scholars discovered that the Gardener shared a connection with another entity among the stars, they called it the Veil”[/i] It’s established that forcing a connection between the veil and the traveler would allow the Witness to gain power, that’s why the Traveler fled in the first place. [i]“They brought the veil back to the gardener in an attempt to strengthen their connection, there they could reshape reality itself. The gardener would not allow it, and so it fled their world.”[/i] This is why in Lightfall we see the pyramids surround the traveler in order to keep it in place and prevent it from fleeing. Then forcing the connection between the Traveler and the Veil which granted the Witness the thing that the Traveler was trying to prevent. Notice how when the connection is made between the veil and the traveler, only the witness is able to enter it, while the rest of us are not. This already establishes that this connection allowed the witness to gain some power over the light. That’s the whole reason the Traveler fled every-time the Black Fleet arrived because they carried the Veil with them. The Witness had the means to force the light to do what it wanted. It lost the Veil during the Collapse on Earth when Savathun hid it away. —————————————————— The Pale Heart that we see is a result of the combination of Light and Dark interacting. A consequence of the interaction between the traveler and the veil. That is what I meant earlier. Memories & consciousness being given form with matter. That’s why mountains form when the Witness first enters. (Lore from Sundered Doctrine) That’s its memories interacting with the intertwining of light and dark. That’s why our memories take shape as we progress through the Pale Heart. That’s why you see prismatic colors forming the plants and environment when you first enter the Pale Heart. Even though we defeat the Witness, the connection between the traveler and the veil has permanently altered the traveler. The portal remains, with dark and light intertwining. Hence the prismatic colors. ————————————————————— Now, you may not like that explanation. But to act like there never was an explanation is incorrect. This has been foreshadowed and explained even before final shape was released. Feel free to call it bad writing, but don’t say there isn’t an explanation. ————————————————————— Anyway, that is the answer to your question about the witness using light in the old days. It did not use the light back then, it had to force the connection between the veil, the traveler, and itself in order to force the light into shaping the universe how it perceived it should be. That’s why it chased the traveler all these billions of years. In order to gain control of the light. And we see that this process was very unnatural, as the traveler tried to communicate to the witness multiple times

Reiterating what I already stated. Could of just said yeah and saved the trouble z A human researcher who doesn’t know what it is or what it can do, if it’s alive or not, label it an entity. Despite none of that actually meeting the criteria of being an entity.- that’s what a bad writer does when they have a destination but no idea how to get there. Forcing a connection only opens the portal. If the connection alone was enough, he wouldn’t have needed to go inside. Also he was able to navigate it due to his multiplicity and Darkness capability. It had nothing to do with Light, stated in the campaign. Thats why Crow had to go inside and Mara guide us, using their connection to traverse the multidimensional space. You literally made all that up. The Pale Heart was shaped by the minds of the people inside. Darkness doesn’t shape physical landscapes, Light does. That’s why it had our locations in it. It wasn’t the connection with the Veil but the dissemination of Darkness inside the Pale Heart that made the Valence. They merged and are now spilling out of the portal. No one should like double standards to explain away a Deus Ex. Nor years of constant retconning. That’s bad writing.

The precursors used the light for many years before they eventually rejected it. They used the Gardener's Tools to terraform worlds. Those who became the Witness did so because they felt that the Traveler never gave them a purpose, and so they'd make one for themselves. The Witness always knew how to use the Light, and when it entered the Pale Heart, it could do so by force. Read the lore, dude.

They actually used tools. Says it explicitly. https://x.com/bungie_leaks/status/1769787649211138077?s=46&t=8fv9fmaY7Q5o_nZV1cPz_A Whereas Guardians [i]have[/i] Light. It’s a literal part of their body. You can’t remove it without killing them unless you block the source emanating Light. In which case it vanishes from their bodies as if it didn’t exist. We’ve known the difference between using tools and having Light since base D2 Red War opening campaign mission about 7 and half years ago. You obviously don’t read or even play enough…

Dude, I've read every grimoire card and lore entry since D1. The "Gardeners Tools" are the Light. IDGAF what you think. You're just a contrarian dip with nothing better to do than act superior to others with your bs take. Get real.

That’s why the entry describes a ship with technology on it for terraforming and seeding the planets. The ship can use Light all it wants. The issue is conflating using a tool that has light and being someone who wields Light directly: then you’re an idiot. Cause any mook with hands can use Light based tech. No one until Humanity directly wielded Light. Big difference between being Chosen and Uplifted.

That isn't the argument. I'm not in any way saying the witness is a lightbearer. I'm saying the Precursor race, and therefore the Witness, has experience using and manipulating the Light. How else does it speak through our ghosts? Ghosts were created by the Traveler when it pushed the Witness out of the Sol system. Unless some lore gives us more details on the matter, there's no reason to think the Witness ever encountered a ghost prior to Arrivals. Your whole gripe was that it makes no sense to you that the Witness could manipulate the Light from inside the Pale Heart, but it's plainly obvious that's not the case at all.

I just showed you the new collectors edition lore book showing they were calling machines that are powered by Light to do an impossible task like terraforming a solar system “tools” so in no way does that convey knowledge on how to manifest powers with Light when it’s in you. We didn’t see powers in the Witness origin lore until Unification under Darkness. All species, species the hundreds in the bos, don’t have Light but tools: in fact lorebook Inspiral showed us Ecumene species were passing around Darkness power and knowledge. And answer to your Ghost point; we literally learned all minds are connected to Darkness with Strand and The Weave lore and Ghost Lore specifically says they are fragments of the Traveler’s consciousness. They are inherently tied to Darkness despite being made of Light. Every single mind is, just like all living people have a Spark of Light. Everything sentient has both. You gotta put that one together. The Witness is just so uber strong cause species combining equals godlike. He’s able to use Darkness in the broad sense to reach out. You can even see Ghost’s light Darken, wouldnt happen if he was using light, right? Pop Bungie even said Darkness is Consciousness and Light is Creation, it just makes the vessel but in Ghost’s case it’s just parts of her that broke off. There is no vessel, they had to make their own.

Also, regarding Ghost, yes. That's certainly a Darkness ability but, that wasn't my point. The Witness hasn't used that ability on anything or anyone else afaik. (Okay, maybe the K-1 artifact counts, or the vision we got at the end of Shadowkeep.) My point was that the Witness was able to manipulate our ghost (a creation of the Traveler) prior to the Witness ever knowing what a ghost even is, not that it necessarily used the Light to do so. It has knowledge of manipulating the Light and it's creations.

Are you sure the Witness didn't use tools to create the Dread? The terrain of the Pale Heart is said to have come from the memories of those inside it, including the Witness. The Traveler "speaks" to Dreamers/Speakers (and us) via visions and dreams. Egregore is a physical manifestation of Darkness. It's not as black and white as you're trying to make it. It's plausible that the Witness used tools to manipulate the Light or, alternatively, just being inside the Traveler and having immense willpower is enough. Honestly, I think it's both, considering Tormentors were created prior to the Witness entering the Pale Heart. It was speculated by Osiris that Calus's cloning tech was used with Nezarec as a template. Heresy lore then expands on that, saying Subjugators are "sister halves" of Tormentors.

The statement that the Veil is an entity was from the proto-worm, who told the story of the Witness origins. Not a “human scholar”. It is a proto-worm who tells us that the goal of the witness is to combine the veil and the traveler in order to reshape reality. It’s literally in the game, and explained point blank what happened and how it works. You are literally making it up that it is somehow not an entity, and that its only function is to open a portal. That is something you entirely created on your own - despite the game telling you directly what is going on. You can go watch the cut scene in the timeline reflections if that’s what you need. I already stated that what we see in the pale heart was shaped by the memories of the people inside. This includes the witness and the player character. As shown in game and stated in the lore. It’s literally stated in the final shape campaign that the witness has a hold on the traveler, and it is only by us severing its connection with the traveler through the salvation’s edge raid, that we are able to defeat it. if you are going to keep completely misinterpreting what I am saying - then it is clear that this conversation is going nowhere and you are looking for a reason to be mad and argumentative

Mkay, the worm said it. I’m calling it as I see it. The Traveler thinks and talks and acts, we have the lore cards showing it from way back in base D1 to present. Not the same for the Veil. Not one word, one action, one thought. So the benchmark was made ten years ago and the Veil doesn’t meet it. Don’t blame me. Labels have been misused for narrative misdirection plenty of times, the Witness is a prime example. He was conflated with the Darkness itself and then we learn he was just the voice inside of it. So the precedent has been set. Yeah the raid happened inside the PH. After he was inside it and was taking control of Light. Not before like you claimed. The Veil had nothing to do with it cause it was only needed to open the portal. The connection between the two is what opened it, saw it play out in the cutscenes. Maybe watch those again. So you made it up. Noticed you avoided all the things you couldn’t argue against. 🤣 Who said I’m mad? Because I disagree with something I have to be mad? What’s that line of reasoning? Being critical and not making excuses for bad storytelling makes you a hater? Sounds like fanboy BDF logic to me. I mean if you think this was all in the works when Bungie literally admitted it wasn’t, then by all means be a silly goose and say it is. Bungie disagrees with you. 🤣🤣

“I’m calling it as I see it” = i’m going to interpret what happened to suit my arguments. Regardless of the evidence that states otherwise. Okay guy ————————————————————— And yeah, if you keep putting words in my mouth, which you keep doing, the impression I’m gonna get is that you’re being a bit of a hater. Especially when you use terms like [i]“fanboy”[/i] There are several points you have made throughout your posts, referring to things that I never said, or have misconstrued them in such a way that I find implausible to be an accident. It comes off like you are just skimming through what I said and are looking to make up reasons to argue. It's not being critical, it's being eristic to the point of nonsense ------------------------------------------------- Like this: [quote]Yeah the raid happened inside the PH. After he was inside it and was taking control of Light. Not before like you claimed. The Veil had nothing to do with it cause it was only needed to open the portal.[/quote] What I said: [quote]It’s literally stated in the final shape campaign that the witness has a hold on the traveler, and it is only by us severing its connection with the traveler through the salvation’s edge raid, that we are able to defeat it.[/quote] I did not say that the SE raid happened somehow before it was inside the Traveler. Nor did I state that the Witness had full control of the traveler, I stated it had [u][i]some[/i][/u] control. Which we see when reality was briefly shaped by the witness in the beginning of Final Shape. - and that yes, the Veil is what enabled it access to the Pale Heart. An Entity of Darkness that is related to the traveler and through the forceful connection ([i]which the Witness was able to do because it is an entity of darkness that learned the power and made a connection with the Veil all those years ago[/i]) created an unwilling connection between the Traveler and the Witness, and let Darkness inside. This connection is what gave it access to the Light, not full connection though clearly as the Traveler resisted but the Witness was going to take it regardless which is why we had to stop it. We severed the connection in the raid, cutting its access to using the light anymore. But the connection of Light and Dark made between the Traveler and the Veil is seemingly permanent as Light and Dark has been mingled within the Pale Heart and keeping the portal open. The Echoes being consequences of this intertwining. ------------------------------------------------- If I were to address every single one of your incorrect statements about my statements then more than half of my replies would be correcting you on what I said - as demonstrated above. furthermore, this would detract from the point about your question of the Witness using the light before it had access to the Pale Heart [quote]So now the Witness was using Light ages ago. Jeez why even bother keeping track when they just wing nonsense like this.[/quote] Which the OP lore never suggested or stated. It discussed how the Witness used the light within the Pale Heart to make the Dread. Which we learned more about in the Sundered Doctrine dungeon, as we read how the Witness would take more Light with every cut it made into the Pale Heart. --------------- --------------- --------------- There is no contradiction between what we learned in the Final Shape and the dungeon. We already knew it gained some power over the Light and used it to make the Dread we initially met in the Heart. All the dungeon did was give us more detailed lore on how it happened.