If you feel threatened by Skill based matchmaking, then maybe you aren't as good as you think you are. It's only being added to Control. Trials and Iron Banner and the like aren't being touched. You can still queue with your friends. The aim behind this implementation is to reduce the number of stomps. If you feel threatened by that, you are part of the problem. If you actually practice what you preach and truly do want to create a competitive environment where you can improve, you should be thrilled at getting matched with players of your relative skill. Seriously, everyone hating on this topic either didn't read the TWAB completely or are just on an ego trip.

That's a lot of words for "I'm scared of a fair fight".

50% of games using CBMM have predetermined outcomes. Little Leaguers aren't going to get better by playing professional athletes, they're just going to get smoked and stop playing. This game may not be considered truly competitive but even Clash Royale has a ladder.

Bungie has the solution to this. BTW it doesn't matter to me either way I really play pvp to have fun and hopefully I get better as I go. But I remember Halo had like a 1 to 50 ranking system which would match with players as you improved or got worse so it was really up to you which way you went. I'm sure it was a good feeling to those who strived to be at the top. I also remember they had the option of playing either or you could select rather if you wanted to play ranked or a social Playlist. They should apply some of those things to Destiny. I think and I could be wrong but they also had the option to pick if you wanted to play regional, connection or other options. Anyways I just remembered so many options when it came down to this that I really don't understand why they are not in this game.

Nothing but Facts.

I just want to point out that matching people in "good, mid, trash" vs "good, mid, trash" is an absolute horrible idea. Then, yes. The game is super easy to get in to, and get good at especially with all the aim assist weapons have. [quote]The irony is, most people -blam!- want SBMM want it because they want to top frag and be that slayer of the lobby[/quote] No, most people I've seen want SBMM because they're always the guy getting trashed. I personally want SBMM because I WANT to be the guy getting trashed, BUT I DO NOT want SBMM at the cost of connection, I'd rather wait 40 minutes for 1 balanced and well connected match than play against laggy players over 7000 km away from me with horrible ping and coinflip each match regardless of skill, because it just because a connection diff with pure SBMM... which is what Bungie has right now. (Elimination/Survivial)

I believe that you are wrong on why you think people want SBMM. It is not that they want to slay or be at the top of the lobby. Its simply that they want a chance to be more then just a kill count for the opposing team. They just want a chance of contributing to their team in a positive way. I believe that you are also wrong about needing to face better players to get bettter at the game. People do not learn anything, from being killed every 3 seconds, other then that they don't want to play again. For many, it is much easier to learn gradually by facing those around your own skill level. You have to remember that being in a certain skill level, does not mean that everybody in that skill level makes the same exact mistakes. You can still spot what people are doing right, and doing wrong, within your own skill level. You can just live long enough to see it, and learn from it. When I played Crucible, which was several years ago, the most fun games were not when I was at the top of the lobby, it was when even one kill could determine the outcome of the match. At my best I was around a 1.5 K/D, and when CBMM was introduced found the matches were just not fun anymore. It was either stomp, or be stomped, and at least to me, neither is fun. I believe that those wanting SBMM really just want closer matches, a chance to contribute, and a chance to have a little more fun.

[quote]Afternoon! With the recent announcement on the TWAB about SBMM in Control, there's be a lot of posts (mainly positive) on this matter and almost an anti F-Sweats vibe. As an older guardian (37 next week) who has been gaming online since counter-strike 1.3 in 1993, I'm surprised by the attitude most people are taking on this and wanted to try to have an open conversation behind some logic here. This might be a TLDR Wall of Text, so please disregard if it's too much for you. I'll understand. I PvP main this game, I can do PvE and am not terrible at it by any means, but I find PvE to become utterly boring after one GM run. That's me. PvP is what I enjoy. When I started gaming, the first online experience in FPS was Counter-strike, and starting off I was absolutely terrible. If I managed a single kill in 1 game I had a good game. I was destroyed. However, I wanted to improve - I needed to be that guy at the top of the chart. So I studied the guys who kept killing me. Their weapons, map positioning, key-bindings, how to read the radar and understand my teams placement and how it effected me etc...until I got better. I noticed I started being able to predict enemy movements by seeing repeat patterns - my aim got better, map awareness was better. Hell, my ability to identify even footsteps grew. Overtime, I started winning my 1v1's against the same guys who kicked my -blam!-. I didn't always win, but I stared winning more than I lost. The better I got, the more enjoyment I gained from the game - because I was skill improving against people I wanted be like. Never once did it ever occur to me to complain about easier lobbies. SBMM is not going to solve the lower skillbase of PvP players problems - no matter how much people think it will. I've played countless games of control and I watch how my teammates play, and majority of the crucible population is clueless how to play PvP. SBMM won't cure this - PvP like PvE, requires specific loadouts - placement - coordination etc.. to be successful and most people in PvP don't want to try that hard. All SBMM will do is allow the lower skillbase players to beat up other lower skillbase players but this won't help them improve their game. You have to have the Patriots and Chiefs of the league, just like you have to have the Lions. You need a the top / middle and bottom tier people playing together because that's how you get better - IF you want to. I really don't care if they put in SBMM - i have no real qualm with it either way - the point I'm trying to make is simply that it's not going to have the effect on peoples gameplay like they assume. The irony is, most people -blam!- want SBMM want it because they want to top frag and be that slayer of the lobby - and this gives them an easier route to do so. I get it - people just don't want to be honest about it. The other half of people, simply just want to do bounties and get out without having to put a lot of effort into it. Case in point, last Iron Banner - I was in freelance just doing my thing - and I had a guardian message me telling me "This isn't trials, go sweat somewhere else". To which my response was "am I supposed to miss on purpose?" and the only answer I got back was "people trying to get bounties done, stop making it so hard". Exactly. "People don't want the flawless pool, because they don't want to play people better than them and get beat". That's exactly the same reason why you WANT the flawless pool. So you don't have to play people who are better then you. It's all the same goal and wants, just from different sides of the room. There is an old saying in Destiny - "nobody hates the OP guns, they just want to be the only people to use them". The hypocrisy runs deep in this community. This is a Space Magic Ability simulator, and probably the easiest PvP game for people to get into. Supers almost promise you at least 1 kill a game, and with guns like Jotunn / Lorentz / Arba etc..there are plenty of ways for people who have less PvP talent to hold their own. It's the effort that's lacking, or maybe the will to try? I'm willing to help anyone who wants to learn how to PvP - I've done countless 1 v 1's with people, going over loadouts and map positioning / awareness etc.. and people do get better when they make the effort. But it's not an immediate return on their investment - it takes time and frankly todays gamers are an 'instant satisfaction' or nothing kindof group. I wish everyone the best - if you want to have an adult conversation regarding difference of opinions, lets do it.[/quote] Good stuff.👍 Practice make perfect and crying murders trying.

You sound arrogant, condescending, and single. I hope you’re less of a turd in real life.

Personally I think the loose sbmm method will only be a benefit. I do agree that it won’t be the end all solution some players think it will be. Lower skilled players who just play for bounties and quests probably won’t have a much different experience. but look at it this way. Players who actually want to get better will have a much more straightforward and enjoyable time doing so. They’ll have a higher chance to properly engage in gunfights, instead of just mopping the floor with a lower skilled player or getting instantly outplayed by someone of much higher skill. Because sure if you just play long enough you’ll [i]eventually[/i] get better. But if you aren’t enjoying it, and if gunfights are ended instantly by one player who easily outclasses the other? Improvement will likely be slow. Personally I feel like I’m hardly improving at all now. Since I’m not a fan of trials/survival, and like you said a lot of players in control are essentially bots. So hopefully I will get more of a challenge as well from sbmm, if even slightly.

If this isn’t the greatest take in Destiny history then I don’t know what it is. I don’t think this should be open to a discussion since you’re very spot on what it’s currently happening and what’s been happening in the game for so long, someone with common sense knows that this is true. I would like to add some "Weapon balancing, abilities, AE changes, etc…" stuff since it’s one of my biggest concerns but maybe it’s just irrelevant to the conversation that you want on this forum. Cheers my guy.

Tell you now, looking forward to the nonflawless pool this weekend - I'm going on safari SSSAAAFFFAAARRIIIIIII

I can SBMM put this into real world terms. Fat -blam!- is mad he gets no -blam!-. Complains about it and then only dates fat girls then has false confidence in that he gets some -blam!- tries the hot girl again and is immediately shutdown only to go back to fat girls. Did he actually improve himself, yes or no? Now what for what the op is trying to convey is that it's better if you get your fat -blam!- in the gym and then go try the hot girl instead of complaining and dating fat girls. *There is no shade to larger people in this comment y'all using sports as a terrible analogy tho*

Who cares if Bungie introduces SBMM to Control? It's already present in Comp and Elim, and no one js complaining about how those games modes are "too difficult" or "too laggy". I doubt adding a "loose" version of that system will have a meaningful impact on the game. Also, I agree with OP's observation that "sweats" are being targeted in the Forums. What's with all the hate? I have news for you. No one likes playing people significantly worse than them. It's not fun or rewarding. Please don't act like people are farming kills on purpose. Most people just want the game to end so there's a chance of getting a fairer matchup. Winning a challenging game is always more fun Also, people keep acting as though trying hard to win is wrong. It's never wrong to try your best, even if it is just a game

Overwatch successfully introduces SBMM and emirpically proves its a good idea - but destiny players don’t care. Halo had SBMM and empirically proved it was a success but destiny players don’t care. You guys are weird about this stuff. Why do you care - if you’re so good at this game?

I’m personally [i]slightly[/i] frustrated that they put in SBMM because it will make it way less fun to play with total meme builds (ruinous effigy ect.) and because I‘ve got above average stats the game will be way harder. But I think it‘s the best thing to do to make it fair for new and lower average players. It‘s way harder improving when you get rolled every match.

So a long winded way of saying everyone but me should have get good while I farm KD from them

What you seem to be missing is that you're a minority and not focal point, nor the target audience of Destiny. You are on the fringes and should be and will be treated as such. After many years, you'll get the competitive games you claim to want by your diatribe about your self-righteous journey and desire to "git gud." Their are games designed for that type of play. Valorant, Rainbow, and many more. Destiny is not the game for Counterstrike rejects to come thru and feel like they are somehow superior bc of PVP work ethic or some bs like that. In competitive games, everyone gets better with time. In non-competitive games like Destiny, people have other things to do besides sit in a PVP list all night. Therefore, at least 50% of the player base is at an experience disadvantage to a PVP main. I have 10s of thousands of D2 hours and still less than 1000 in PVP despite many flawless runs etc. There is just a major difference in PVP destiny mains and MOST players.

This...is a very bad take. I mean at first it's [i]almost[/i] like you're attempting a nuanced discussion, but then you make over generalized and exaggerated claims like "most people in PvP don't want to try that hard" and "most of the playerbase is clueless." There is a word for that my friend. It is "arrogance." And then there's the fact that Destiny 2 is NOT Count Strike and we are NOT in 1993. The skill gap across games has vastly widened in the last 30 years, simply because people are being exposed to games sooner and for longer periods of time, not to mention the growth of E-Sports. Counter Strike also invoked the inner competetive nature of its playerbase by design. Destiny 2 does not. It is a looter shooter. So many people are going to queue up solely for the loot and be matched with people who want to fight to the end. That right there immediately creates issues if they're all in the same lobby. The players who want to win drops 40 kills and lose, while they're carrying 5 people who either don't care or just get absolutely farmed and have a bad time. Then of course there's the snowball potential, crazy movement, and abilities all in Destiny that aren't in Counter Strike. So not only are you at very least displaying arrogance, but you aren't even make an apples-to-apples comparison. There's just no logic here. I'm not saying SBMM is good or bad or whatever, but starting discussions like you are is certainly not the way to figure it out.

Most games have some form of sbmm, even csgo does. To have absolutely no sbmm is dumb. Heck, fortnite introduced actual bots just to keep people playing Most players are of average skill and don’t care to improve, they just play to kill time or do bounties or quests. They should be able to do so without getting farmed Improving in Destiny, which is a no skill game to begin with just means using cheesy tactics and cheese loadouts. Some players don’t want to play like that TLDR: Destiny is not a competitive game, most people don’t care to improve. Let them have their fun too

[quote]Afternoon! With the recent announcement on the TWAB about SBMM in Control, there's be a lot of posts (mainly positive) on this matter and almost an anti F-Sweats vibe. As an older guardian (37 next week) who has been gaming online since counter-strike 1.3 in 1993, I'm surprised by the attitude most people are taking on this and wanted to try to have an open conversation behind some logic here. This might be a TLDR Wall of Text, so please disregard if it's too much for you. I'll understand. I PvP main this game, I can do PvE and am not terrible at it by any means, but I find PvE to become utterly boring after one GM run. That's me. PvP is what I enjoy. When I started gaming, the first online experience in FPS was Counter-strike, and starting off I was absolutely terrible. If I managed a single kill in 1 game I had a good game. I was destroyed. However, I wanted to improve - I needed to be that guy at the top of the chart. So I studied the guys who kept killing me. Their weapons, map positioning, key-bindings, how to read the radar and understand my teams placement and how it effected me etc...until I got better. I noticed I started being able to predict enemy movements by seeing repeat patterns - my aim got better, map awareness was better. Hell, my ability to identify even footsteps grew. Overtime, I started winning my 1v1's against the same guys who kicked my -blam!-. I didn't always win, but I stared winning more than I lost. The better I got, the more enjoyment I gained from the game - because I was skill improving against people I wanted be like. Never once did it ever occur to me to complain about easier lobbies. SBMM is not going to solve the lower skillbase of PvP players problems - no matter how much people think it will. I've played countless games of control and I watch how my teammates play, and majority of the crucible population is clueless how to play PvP. SBMM won't cure this - PvP like PvE, requires specific loadouts - placement - coordination etc.. to be successful and most people in PvP don't want to try that hard. All SBMM will do is allow the lower skillbase players to beat up other lower skillbase players but this won't help them improve their game. You have to have the Patriots and Chiefs of the league, just like you have to have the Lions. You need a the top / middle and bottom tier people playing together because that's how you get better - IF you want to. I really don't care if they put in SBMM - i have no real qualm with it either way - the point I'm trying to make is simply that it's not going to have the effect on peoples gameplay like they assume. The irony is, most people -blam!- want SBMM want it because they want to top frag and be that slayer of the lobby - and this gives them an easier route to do so. I get it - people just don't want to be honest about it. The other half of people, simply just want to do bounties and get out without having to put a lot of effort into it. Case in point, last Iron Banner - I was in freelance just doing my thing - and I had a guardian message me telling me "This isn't trials, go sweat somewhere else". To which my response was "am I supposed to miss on purpose?" and the only answer I got back was "people trying to get bounties done, stop making it so hard". Exactly. "People don't want the flawless pool, because they don't want to play people better than them and get beat". That's exactly the same reason why you WANT the flawless pool. So you don't have to play people who are better then you. It's all the same goal and wants, just from different sides of the room. There is an old saying in Destiny - "nobody hates the OP guns, they just want to be the only people to use them". The hypocrisy runs deep in this community. This is a Space Magic Ability simulator, and probably the easiest PvP game for people to get into. Supers almost promise you at least 1 kill a game, and with guns like Jotunn / Lorentz / Arba etc..there are plenty of ways for people who have less PvP talent to hold their own. It's the effort that's lacking, or maybe the will to try? I'm willing to help anyone who wants to learn how to PvP - I've done countless 1 v 1's with people, going over loadouts and map positioning / awareness etc.. and people do get better when they make the effort. But it's not an immediate return on their investment - it takes time and frankly todays gamers are an 'instant satisfaction' or nothing kindof group. I wish everyone the best - if you want to have an adult conversation regarding difference of opinions, lets do it.[/quote] I have a simple answer to your long post that was 1993 its 2022 things change move on man a new generation running things as much as some of us might not like it we can either adapt or play something else. 😉 I just want more content to keep us engaged if its not fun we move to another game. I hope you enjoy the incoming sweaty games bud.

Why I as a pve player prefer sbmm is because I don’t want to get better at pvp, I see red on my radar, I run toward it, and I engage. Switching my entire loadout to do a few pvp matches is pointless. I don’t play pvp much, almost never, but when I do play I’d rather play against people of my skill, otherwise it is just a chore. Just my opinion, which doesn’t count for much.

That's alot of words to say you love stomping noobs.

Destiny isn't CS, CoD or Fortnite. You have maine PVP players and main PVE players. You yourself are tagging you as main PVP in the text. Does this mean the main PVE players should accept being stomped by main PVP players everytime they venture in to Cruicible ? You write:[i] "The irony is, most people -blam!- want SBMM want it because they want to top frag and be that slayer of the lobby - and this gives them an easier route to do so. I get it - people just don't want to be honest about it."[/i] - the same can be said for you wanting CBMM, feels good stomping out a PVE players?, not having to face your equal that will make it harder, right? Further you write: [i]"You have to have the Patriots and Chiefs of the league, just like you have to have the Lions. You need a the top / middle and bottom tier people playing together because that's how you get better - IF you want to." [/i] - True, but. This is also wether it is American football or Soccer you have different leauges, you don't take a Division 3 team and pair it against Premier League team, simply becuase they aren't an even match....no fun for the division 3 team or the audinece watching the game. And if you want to counter this argument by saying there is difference in economy then in destiny money translates into time. Funny how most of you that are against SBMM write [i]"I really don't care if they put in SBMM...."[/i] while all those for SBMM do care. I have never been a main PVP player.....but do i want to win? absolutley!

[quote]and majority of the crucible population is clueless how to play PvP. SBMM won't cure this -[/quote] Reading bullcrap like this is exactly proving how clueless and out of touch you guys are when it comes to this. I know I'm clueless and have no idea how to play PVP in this game. Fine, great. So if the "majority" of the PVP population is like me, then I just want to be matched up with those guys so we can all have fun together in a FAIR and COMPETITIVE PVP experience. I should not ever EVER have to be matched up with you and your ilk as often as this game does. Comprende? What is so -blam!- hard about understanding this? No wonder there's an F-the-Sweats vibe...condescending jerk with your "git gud" speech.