Ever since season 4 of destiny 2 i have always been fascinated with pvp. In the beginning (season 1 - season 3) i was never much of a pvp player. I normally kept myself in the pve aspect; playing vanguard strikes and the occasional leviathan raid. I did however play pvp with a couple of friends. Double primary being the main and only way to play back then with a 2.0+ ttk advrage. This means that battles, 1v1 and so on, were more based on weapon skill more than hit luck or ability spam. This is also when supers were roughly 1 per match and ability spamming, such as grenade spamming, was not a thing. people would camp next to heavy spawn to grab the heavy, but this is also when heavy was more so acting like a super kill. Back then weapon metas were defined by single named weapons: mida, urials, last hope, etc. Now a days metas are defined by the type of weapon instead of the named weapon. This with many other reasons is causing pvp to considerably go down in intrest, as well as proceed down in overall game intrest: pvp and pve.
For me pvp is a staple in any game. Without a pvp, the game can become stale and boring. In seasons 1 - 3, my pvp kd/kda advrage was around a 0.6 or so. It wasn't untill season 4 where i began my long hard journy to reach my peak pvp skill. by the time season 10 or 11 came around, i grew from a 0.6 to a 2.5, seeing metas shift in and out season to season. However, in those seasons (seasons 4 - 16), 2 weapons became very clear that they will never be taken out of the meta and it hardens me to a humble degree. These weapons are Handcannons and Shotguns.
Both weapons have been apart of the meta ever since the weapon change back in season 4. This means that no matter how oppressive they get, they will never be nerfed out of the meta like other weapons. Some examples are auto riffles and pulses. Auto riffles were heavily apart of the meta for about 3 seasons (8 months) before being pushed out by snipers and more handcannons. To be specific, the next weeks meta, after week 35 on trials report, 6 handcannons were top 10 compared to week 35's 1 handcannon.
Now with the whole backstory out of the way lets get into the juicy bit. I am proposing that the sandbox team should nerf and tune the top 2 weapons to "out of the meta" status. What are these two weapons? Handcannons and Shotguns. If you don't believe me, look at the information below. All info is pulled only from trials from week 1 (03/13/2020) to week 91 (03/15/2022). All totals equal up to 910 weapons used and a percentage of 99.3% (this is not rounded up or down which is why there is a missing 0.7%)
handcannon - 280 / 30.7%
shotgun - 202 / 22.1%
sniper - 128 / 14.0%
auto - 101 / 11.0%
fusion - 83 / 9.1%
scout - 32 / 3.5%
linear fusion - 28 / 3.0%
pulse - 27 / 2.9%
grenade launcher (special) - 15 / 1.6%
sidarm - 10 / 1.0%
sub-machine gun - 3 / 0.3%
bow - 1 / 0.1%
trace riffle - 0 / 0.0%
Handcannons and Shotguns alone make up 52.8% of these games from week 1 - week 91. Meaning out of every weapon in the game, handcannons and shotguns made up over half of the weapons chosen. Trying to form any other combo would lead to a less than half combo/pick rate.
handcannon sniper - 44.7%
handcannon fusion - 39.8%
handcannon auto - 41.7%
I could keep going on with this however i feel like you guys understand the point. However usage is only the bare hair on the skin with why these two weapons should be nerfed and tuned for "out of the meta". They are both extremely forgiving, 2 head 1 body or 3 body 1 head, or a melee after firing. Being some of the fastest ttk with ranges battling those of scouts, pulses and bows. Ontop of the fact that anytime a weapon outpaces it, the auto meta by the way, those weapons that are outpacing it get nerfed so hard, they become almost unusable in any pvp state.
Another example is of the upcoming bow nerf. out of all 91 weeks, only 1 bow has ever showed up in the meta. To be specific, 0.1% of showing. And now because of this showing, it is now getting nerfed. If this is the case, Handcannons and shotguns need to get drastically changed to compensate for the lack of primary variety over the past 91 weeks: 2 years.
I feel doing this will help pvp in the long term. maps with close range won't as oppressive and demanding of cqc weapons. people will be more open to using what they want instead of being forced to run the same 2 weapons over and over again. this will also help push for a more even usage spread between weapons. (this dose not mean fusions shouldn't get nerfed as well, however this needs to be addressed one step at a time).
If you would like to check my work, Trials report is open for everyone to see. however i will worn it took over 2 hours to tally each weapon type, count and math out the numbers. And i know these numbers aren't pure since the auto meta was only realistically for 8 months then died off faster than cayde-6 during the first mission. however even just ignoring those 8 months, the numbers don't change much except for autos going from 101 showing to 1 or so showing.
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The fact you use one of the corniest loadouts in the game should bar you from having any say. HCS AND SGS are popular yes but the fact that most HCS/SGS have received range and perk nerfs in one way or another doesn’t make them [i]the[/i] meta anymore. Hand cannons are good when people hit their shots and have decent positioning/gamesense, shotguns reward decent movement and aggressive play (although the odd few campers can certainly catch people unaware whenever they run around corners). I know I always get hit by handcannons whenever I just stick my head out in the open, don’t strafe, and just have overall bad movement. But when I find good cover and place my shots, a pulse can easily outgun handcannons. And for shotguns.. just don’t let them get close. Yes, I think there’s definitely some things that need tuning. But I’ve always been a proponent of buffing things rather than nerfing. Things like SMGs, Fusions, and Pulses are definitely quite strong right now. I will admit I use a pulse, it’s just what I prefer, and it certainly helps that it’s a strong archetype in the right hands. I think, however, HCS/SGS have been popular because they’ve always [i]felt[/i] solid. Snappy, good sound design, good visuals, and decent perks usually. They make you feel like a space gunslinger, which in a game about space gunslingers why wouldn’t you wanna feel that way? My advice, if your getting pounded by HCS/SGS, work on your movement and placing. If you still get got, then just accept the other person had better aim. I mean, if you’re not outgunning people using straight handcannons by peek shotting with Monarque and a 120 then idk what to tell u dog.
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Honestly I hate shotguns, (go look at my kills with them vs snipers) but you really don't want shotguns nerfed more than they are now. You need people running them and fusions for the fluidity of the game. If you nerf shottys more then it becomes sniper central which is boring because no one moves. As for handcannons I feel like a large portion of destiny 2's player base is on pc which is the best platform for handcannons since flick aiming is better than tracking on mnk. Which is why you see such a despairity on kills with hc vs others. That and hc offer a power fantasy that other guns don't one bug bullet that just chunks health off of someone.
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No. Hand cannons got nerfed into the ground a few seasons ago and now they're actually back to being usable. The exotics are over used, but that'll always happen, buff the rest but don't nerf the handcannons again
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1 返信From my observations as a newish player, if you miss with a HC you're screwed. With shotguns, they're really only good at close range and that's it. The polearm also one shots, so your argument for both getting nerfed doesn't really make sense.
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I think one of the biggest issues with handcannons and shotguns isn't even directly related to them. Instead, they've become a symptom of larger core issues, to which, personally, I think much of those stem from small and/or bad map design. A vast majority of the maps in this game are built for 4v4 or less in mind, and during a time when we were slower too. Now we have 6v6 for most gamemodes, and are faster in general, but maps have never been adjusted accordingly. As a result, players can cross maps quicker and spawn in more closely to each other, causing engagements to often be in close-mid range. As we are all well aware, two main weapon types seem to perform exceptionally well there. Imo, I think that by increasing map sizes to better accommodate 12 players, as well as better designs in general, then handcannons and shotguns wouldn't be as prevalent as they are now without needing as much direct adjustment.
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3 通の返信I'm right up there with Anti shotty/HC (use rarely in PVE and once in a blue moon try out some old ones I have in my vault in PVP) but they don't need to go and here's why, it brings a lot of satisfaction killing these bks with non meta weapons. The range on HC definitely needs to be reduced and to me shotty's are fine. I'm a sidearm/auto or pulse. 😎
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7 通の返信Rageousにより編集済み: 3/24/2022 4:57:17 PMWish I matched all this HC and Shotgun Users. I only match Pulses, SMG’s, Bow’s, and Fusions. Also, you’re not allowed to complain when you hotswap LeMonarque/120 like that isn’t one of the most broken combos.
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10 通の返信A lot of reasons why you could have a point, but there are a few reasons why I am against the handcannons You see it takes 3 head shots to kill someone cleanly and I think… 4 for a body, anyway the real reason is that the handcannons are the br of destiny, but there are a few different problems Hand cannons, the king of the game, for being Fairly balanced, decent damage,range, recoil and mag size Auto rifles were given the spotlight and instantly all handcannons were gone, replaced with the hardlight and a shotgun, then after while bungie reverted what they did Pulse rifles are still good, messenger and the new one are good Scout, these things have only one decent one, dmt Smg, amazing fast fire rate and recoil control Bows, I been having fun with them, a lot of fun Sidearms, a few are amazing travelers chosen and ratking by far my favourites Sniper, decent but since how small the maps are there is not really much need for them Shotgun, small maps, big opportunity Fusion, same as the shotgun with a extra step Grenade launchers, not really seen alot cause it’s all aim and prey As you can see most of it is cause of a few reasons if we nerf one thing say handcannons, the messenger will just take its place with a fusion the snipers and grenade launcher aren’t gonna rise to it, so unfortunately nothing much will change We can have fun with new guns, sure but they won’t be seen, since we just follow what everyone else uses
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9 通の返信snowcolaにより編集済み: 3/24/2022 7:47:14 PMNot even bothered reading the massive essay you've wrote but read a few comments here and there. Just want to throw my hat in the ring here. Shotguns are actually really fine atm due to the mass nerfs received, the only thing that promotes shotgun usage is map design and how a lot of people play. (rushy and brainless) also shotguns are inconsistent. Hcs, well this one is a very controversial one, my belief they are fine where they are, as someone that's used every primary in game and gone flawless with different builds and gone on 20/30+ kill streaks with different weapons other than hcs. I can actually saftley say yes hcs are strong with the AA but they do not out range scouts and some pulses. When you play with different weapons you need to know the personality of that weapon, it's perks its stats its recoil direction. Then you need to adjust how you play to complement that weapon such as mods, positioning and understand where to aim. For instance let's throw the price of mind out as an example. If you use this gun you'll know its recoil direction is bad so you have to off set it with perks/mods but even then to hit the crit with every bullet within the burst you can't just aim at the head but have to aim around the chest area for you to hit every crit in a burst. You've also have to play its effective range while also understanding your enimes weapons and the weakness of them. Hcs are also the destiny poster child, unlike most fps games, destiny has made it where a hc is the fan favourite even when it's not meta. (yes it wasn't meta a few times). Just like back in season 10 when 600rpm autos were meta. But for some reason hcs were still used back in that meta. That reason is, people enjoyed and love hcs in this game. Just like a lot of other people love pulse, scouts or whatever primary in this game they still use them over the meta. So even if hc wasn't the meta they would still get used just as much as whatever primary weapon is meta. Look at pc, dmt was meta and dominated trials and pvp for a while but people still kept using the hcs they loved despite going against a dmt which was busted on pc. (dmt probably still busted on pc who knows). When vex was busted people still used hcs over vex.
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5 通の返信livin like larryにより編集済み: 3/24/2022 7:08:03 PMIF handcannons get nerfed, all I’d do is reduce the flinch they output, and also hit the aim assist a bit. Other than that, nothing more is needed. Shotties have already been nerfed several times. They do not need more tuning, besides maybe making them more consistent in their respective ranges. This is because right now, pellet shotties are extremely inconsistent. Sometimes you will get a one shot kill at 5 meters, and other times it’ll completely whiff at 3 meters even with your reticle at the correct place. Special ammo and the current map rotation also play a large part in their usage. That’s a completely different discussion.
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2 通の返信Meh handcannons are just the most fun and versatile out of anything in the game imo. If you’re not getting first shot of and getting three tapped. that sucks for you. sounds like a you problem. I was playing a kid with summoner the other day and if i didn’t get first shot and a perfect 3 tap he’d mow me down. Not much you can do to nerf cannons besides reduce the aa (which they should) and drop the range thus making them useless. Shotties will always have their part in the game, because at some point people will always be in melee range, or coming around a corner. it’s just the nature of the game. If you haven’t figured out how to predict when someone’s got a shotty out that’s on you. They’re incredibly inconsistent to play with.
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2 通の返信Machine_DNAにより編集済み: 3/24/2022 6:54:11 PMThe massive flaw with your argument is that usage does not determine power. Bungie should (and I think try) to balance based on outliers rather than usage numbers and this is how it should be. If there was an even split of shotguns, snipers and fusions then the game would not be fun due to the play style. When long range weapons (snipers and scouts) or medium range one shot weapons (fusions) have high usage, many players become passive and games become slow. You should look at KD vs weapon usage and see what’s truly effective. It’s good lots of players use shotguns because they can only one shot within 6 metres and so it forces players to rush, move around the map and more often than not, gift kills to people using a primary weapon as they try to ape. People will always gravitate towards shotguns and only outliers (chaperone, Felwinter) need adjusting - they are simply not that strong anymore. Fusions have more outliers currently and I think firmly planted needs to be removed much like QuickDraw was from a lot of shotguns. In regards to primaries, I think autos are tricky as their ttk is ok but the require constant line of sight. Handcannons are so great at the hyper mobile play style many better players adopt as they can peak shoot, have high single shot damage and are good in the air. I’m not sure what the solution is here but I’d like to see aim assist reductions on handcannons and maybe make auto weapons a bit more forgiving or easier to use (less flinch received etc). You put a lot of work into your post but games should never balance around usage and usage doesn’t determine what is out of balance in a sandbox. I’d like to see further changes to PvP but I think over the last 18 months particularly, weapon balance has been going in the right direction.
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13 通の返信
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Handcannons are overused because no one wants to use anything else. There are other weapons but no one trys them out.... this also plays into the reason people use shotguns as people play too close range. Shotguns are overused because people just run around like mad not thinking of what they are doing and playing into the Shotguns strengths. If people just learned how to combat Shotguns (which is quite easy) then people would use them less.
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2 通の返信They don’t need nerfed, they are just easy to use. Easy to use doesn’t translate to overpowered, merely that they have a much easier time being consistent between shots. Despite this higher consistency, however, if you flinch a handcannon and they miss a shot, their ttk becomes significantly higher. While they are consistent, they still require you to be more accurate than other weapons. I think handcannons are fine as is. I believe a better argument is to make a couple more weapon archetypes more competitive, however I don’t believe that applies to a large subset of weapons, merely a small subset. A lot of weapons are perfectly fine - they all don’t have to work for everyone, but they are still competitive when you put them to work, which is how pvp operates.
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4 通の返信They have been meta for years. Nerf them into the ground like they do with every other weapon.
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8 通の返信
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2 通の返信Shotguns have had several nerfs the last year including felwinters and chaperone coupled with multiple free releases of god level fusion rifles (2x main ingredient and 1x timelines vertex). Fusions are steadily supplanting shotguns due to their far superior 1 hit kill range and easy handling The only real issue with hand cannons has been and continues to be range vs pulses/scouts. Up close they are vastly Outperformed in ttk by smgs. The main problem is them out dueling scouts/pulses at 30-35 meters. Their skill curve and damage is completely fine, they just need a 5 meter damage fall off nerf to make a more clear delineation between them and long range weapons on the sandbox
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2 通の返信Did you also consider that almost every map is close to mid range. The reason short zoom scopes were a must because they got nerfed? The entire meta is just victim of map design. If most of the maps were long range people would be complaining about scouts, snipers and pulses
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2 通の返信-hand cannons need to not be good at every range. i'm no master pvper but i've been out gunned by hand cannons at range vs my pulse, auto, scout, yet they work pretty close too. I don't think it should do both. granted i play on console and still they are kinda hard to control. -maps need to not be narrow, and cluttered, full of blind corners (like twilght gap, anomoly, convergence) providing for easy shotgun aping where they can easily tank primary bullets to shotgun you. with primary ttk slower than like COD, maps with just tight spaces make shotguns a problem.
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2 通の返信Shotguns are a weird beast, since while they DOMINATE, they really aren't overpowered on their own. If anything, I'd rework them to: - instantly fall to zero (all shotguns) - give pellets a meter back and remove random spread (also undo the recent Felwinter's nerf, or give it Smoothbore without changing the spread). - Reduce slug bodyshot damage by 50% to 70, increase headshot damage to 350-ish - Reduce overall draw speed, or have a slight spread penalty right as you're drawing? As for Hand Cannons... The problem with those is they've got the tools to completely dictate engagements, with the range of a Pulse Rifle, Zoom of an SMG, bullet magnetism of pre-nerf Arbalest, and the range of a Pulse. There's really no weakness here. So: - Reduce the range a flat 3 meters across the board - Reduce aim assist/Bullet Magnetism by ~30% (puts them more in line with other primaries). - Reduce the flinch by a bit - Increase 120 headshot damage to 85 - Increase 180 RPMs to 200-210. - Oh, and Last Word needs WAAAAY less reticle friction for a touch more bullet magnetism. And beyond that, I'd probably play with pulses a bit and give ARs a significant range boost, since it makes more sense for ARs to have a little overlap with pulses, assuming Pulses have unchanged range values from current.
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6 通の返信Ryan Foxlingにより編集済み: 3/24/2022 7:58:52 AMThe only fing I would nerf is aim assist on hand cannons, shoutguns are fine, fusion rifles are way oppressive in current state, they are always going to be meta because of versatile gameplay, ease of use and map design. 340 pulses, smg's with high zoom aren't worse if not better than hand cannons on certain maps. Shotguns are weak right now, people just don't know how to play pvp, that's why they just shotgun ape every time, I don't know why people expecting them not to be on top, a lot of players in this game are only capable to shoot dregs in patrol, they aren't going to try to use weapons that takes at least some effort to learn. I was a shotgun+hc main, but switched to a pulse+fusion 3 moths ago, the easiest loadout to use, takes no effort to be good with
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1 返信Tom Cruiseにより編集済み: 3/24/2022 7:39:41 AMI know we’ve all heard it said a million times from all angles now, but handcannons and shottys will ALWAYS be meta due to their nature. Peek shooting is always stronger, and the player base has gotten so much better at using them since the early days of D1. I think a potentially great idea for a nerf to handcannons without removing the amazing gunslinger fantasy they provide is nerfing their aim assist / targeting, [i][b]potentially heavily[/b][/i]. This way they are still allowed to be “oppressive”, but only by players who would’ve beat you with any other gun anyway, the real rootiest tootiest cowboys out there. The change just makes sense to me, because other nerfs like range or damage make handcannons feel kinda useless.