Yes, however smgs never were a good option for pvp even before the ar buff

That's cap. On console, SMGs were always fine. People just never use them. antipope, tarrabah, Huckleberry, risk runner, the seraph SMG, every waking moment to name a few. They're like hand cannons in a sense. You have to learn to control the recoil and understand their range. Also not every SMG is good, similar to how not all hand cannons are equal. Peacekeeper snipe main Titans would like a word with you.

[quote]That's cap. On console, SMGs were always fine. People just never use them. Yeah nah I only play console and their bad antipope, tarrabah, Huckleberry, risk runner, the seraph SMG, every waking moment to name a few. Yes and no they have situations that they dominate but most times their is a far better option They're like hand cannons in a sense. You have to learn to control the recoil and understand their range. If that was the case and there only issue is a learning curve then like hcs they would be used even a little Also not every SMG is good, similar to how not all hand cannons are equal. Yes how ever in pvp 2 stand out and even then I never see them Peacekeeper snipe main Titans would like a word with you.[/quote] Yeah I am one of those so how do I talk to my self That and using an exotic to make an weapon type viable means that they wepaon type NEEDS love

Oh. Ikelos SMG is insane. Hero's burden is nice too. Obviously recluse but that's the suros of SMGs so it doesn't count. I named multiple SMG options, 3 were exotic. Let's go through some hand cannon options. Dire, spare, thorn, lumina, ace, the last word, Sturm, old fashioned, kindled. Let's go through autos... Suros, hardlight, gnawing, I don't know anymore 🤣 Let's look at pulses. Vigi wing, redrix, last perdition, bygones, outbreak. You don't have to use an exotic SMG to be competitive. Actually.... Most exotic SMGs under perform compared to their legendary counter parts. * Cough * Terrabah. I named exotics because they are in the [b]top used SMGs[/b]. My entire point is auto rifles were over tuned. Why use a SMG when auto rifles have more range, less recoil, larger magazine size, and similar if not faster ttk values. One could make the argument that scouts are useless and in need of a buff because pulses and autos do their job better due to range values and map design ... But this is the definition of power creep. Bungie over buffs an extremely forgiving weapon type, which puts strain on other primary options.... Which leads to people saying SMG, scouts, etc need buffs. Which leads to them getting over buffed ... Now and cannons, side arms, and pulses are " in need " . In reality they are fine. Revert the sandbox back to the season before trials. Everything was in a good spot imo. No primary had a serious upper hand, and everything was balanced relative to it's forgiveness aka ease of use. SMGs don't need buffs. Autos need nerfs. 🤯

[quote]Oh. Ikelos SMG is insane. Hero's burden is nice too.[/quote] /\ out liers dont mean anything for weapontype performance [quote]Obviously recluse but that's the suros of SMGs so it doesn't count. I named multiple SMG options, 3 were exotic. Let's go through some hand cannon options. Dire, spare, thorn, lumina, ace, the last word, Sturm, old fashioned, kindled. Let's go through autos... Suros, hardlight, gnawing, I don't know anymore 🤣[/quote] /\ again outliers or special cases mean nothing for overall performance [quote]My entire point is auto rifles were over tuned. Why use a SMG when auto rifles have more range, less recoil, larger magazine size, and similar if not faster ttk values. One could make the argument that scouts are useless and in need of a buff because pulses and autos do their job better due to range values and map design ... But this is the definition of power creep.[/quote] /\ bungie said that they ARN'T going back on the AR buff, it doesnt matter why they are worse options if bungie AINT gonna NERF ARs SMGs don't need buffs. Autos need nerfs. 🤯 /\/\ as i said bungie aint gonna do nerfs their only gonna buff regardless of your oppinion or mine. so as such we should provide bungie with IDEAS on how to not over tune them like they did autos

[quote]Oh. Ikelos SMG is insane. Hero's burden is nice too. /\ out liers dont mean anything for weapontype performance[/quote] I'd love to know how either of those are outliers. [quote]Obviously recluse but that's the suros of SMGs so it doesn't count. I named multiple SMG options, 3 were exotic. Let's go through some hand cannon options. Dire, spare, thorn, lumina, ace, the last word, Sturm, old fashioned, kindled. Let's go through autos... Suros, hardlight, gnawing, I don't know anymore 🤣 /\ again outliers or special cases mean nothing for overall performance[/quote] What's special or deserving of the outlier status of a 0.8-0.87 optimal ttk hand cannon vs 0.73 SMGs and 0.70 autos that can easily out range hand cannons ? [quote]My entire point is auto rifles were over tuned. Why use a SMG when auto rifles have more range, less recoil, larger magazine size, and similar if not faster ttk values. One could make the argument that scouts are useless and in need of a buff because pulses and autos do their job better due to range values and map design ... But this is the definition of power creep. /\ bungie said that they ARN'T going back on the AR buff, it doesnt matter why they are worse options if bungie AINT gonna NERF ARs[/quote] So this is where it gets conflicting. I've heard they were going to adjust damage down for 600s. I guess we will wait and see. [quote]SMGs don't need buffs. Autos need nerfs. 🤯 /\/\ as i said bungie aint gonna do nerfs their only gonna buff regardless of your oppinion or mine. so as such we should provide bungie with IDEAS on how to not over tune them like they did autos[/quote] Bungie doesn't give a flying -blam!- about community feedback. They have proven it time and time again. They have had respectable members of respectable tourney teams give insight and even work with Bungie to try and help balance the sandbox... Those people ultimately quit because Bungie knows -blam!- all about their own game. Sad truth is. Bungie has zero hope of balancing the sandbox for 2 reasons. 1. There is absolutely no way they play the game, the proof is in the pudding, and when they do they are being carried on stream. 2. Sand box splits for console and PC / PvP and PvE are an absolute must for a game of this caliber. Edit: In all honesty SMGs get shafted for 2 reasons and they are related to your original post. 1. Autos do it better. Literally everything. 2. What ever autos lack, which I struggle to find an example of, sidearms [b][u]easily[/u][/b] take the cake for what's left. SMGs aren't bad. They are now a " skill gap " weapon. It has nothing to do with SMGs under performing, and everything to do with recent auto and side arm buffs.

I'd love to know how either of those are outliers. /\/\ because they ARENT the norm, they are BETTER then the average, they sit on the higher teir of SMG's What's special or deserving of the outlier status of a 0.8-0.87 optimal ttk hand cannon vs 0.73 SMGs and 0.70 autos that can easily out range hand cannons ? /\/\ i simplely said the ones you picked normaly have 1 or 2 MAIN things making them better the the rest of the pack, such as higher base stats in certain areas or better perkpools or unique perk pools So this is where it gets conflicting. I've heard they were going to adjust damage down for 600s. I guess we will wait and see. /\/\ i only heard that they are going to buff other ARs to compete with 600's Edit: In all honesty SMGs get shafted for 2 reasons and they are related to your original post. 1. Autos do it better. Literally everything. 2. What ever autos lack, which I struggle to find an example of, sidearms easily take the cake for what's left. SMGs aren't bad. They are now a " skill gap " weapon. /\/\ hence why i suggested MY improvements because they cover all those weaknesses in one way or another. and as for "skill gap weapon", 600 smg 0.73 ttk 600 AR 0.7 and i have legitimately LOST a 1v1 because of that, there is room for skillful play but why not use the superior AR, since as you said they do it better literally

So your saying that any gun that outperforms others within it's weapon type is an outlier.... I guess. When I think of an outlier I think of suros having a sub .5 second ttk. I think of NF 2 taps with old mag howl perk. I think of pre nerf recluse sitting sub .4 seconds. Terrahab with Rav beast sitting sub .35 seconds. Some of these can be exceptions though because they are situational. For example, suros only hits that ttk when fully spun up. Terrabah only has that ttk with ravenous beast active and for a short duration. I wouldn't say that every waking moment, the hero's burden, or ikelos SMG are outliers. They are a solid base line to SMGs. The rest of your options are either from y1 / y2 and are immediate candidates.of sunsetting or they are actual garbage and should have never been made.

[quote]So your saying that any gun that outperforms others within it's weapon type is an outlier.... I guess. When I think of an outlier I think of suros having a sub .5 second ttk. I think of NF 2 taps with old mag howl perk. I think of pre nerf recluse sitting sub .4 seconds. Terrahab with Rav beast sitting sub .35 seconds. Some of these can be exceptions though because they are situational. For example, suros only hits that ttk when fully spun up. Terrabah only has that ttk with ravenous beast active and for a short duration. I wouldn't say that every waking moment, the hero's burden, or ikelos SMG are outliers. They are a solid base line to SMGs. The rest of your options are either from y1 / y2 and are immediate candidates.of sunsetting or they are actual garbage and should have never been made.[/quote] No im saying out performs the average by a decent margin weather that be feel or stats, that and people don't use most smgs apart from those that punch above their weight And yes although not ever roll is the best for an outlier the point is those that arnt can't be better ikelos with its great stability cant be matched by others because no 750 can top it

I truly don't understand what you want. You say to buff SMGs.... But then I list good ones.... And you say that they're outliers. So, you admit that there are good SMGs. I don't know what you want at this point. Maybe it's best we leave it at that.

I say for a SMG they are good i never said that they are good in general, I meant just by smg standards they better

You're not making sense. " Buff SMGs " " These SMGs are good " " The SMG weapon type struggles against auto rifles " Yea..... Auto rifles piss in the face of everything. They have lower ttk values than most primaries [b][u]and[/u][/b] out range them. SMGs are fine. Autos are to strong. Buff all primaries or none at all. The buff all primaries introduces power creep... Leading to an eventual buff to individual weapon types to " balance " which leads to over tuning (auto rifles ) which leads to other primaries being poop again. Which leads to? [u][b]Another buff.[/b][/u] That's power creep. SMGs are fine. You even stated it. So now I'm confused... You can't say something is an outlier and the say the archetype sucks. That's literally not possible.

[quote]You're not making sense. " Buff SMGs " " These SMGs are good " " The SMG weapon type struggles against auto rifles " Ok smgs are bad in general and even are lacking in what they are meant tk be good at, however this problem isn't as great in some as in most Yea..... Auto rifles piss in the face of everything. They have lower ttk values than most primaries [b][u]and[/u][/b] out range them. SMGs are fine. Autos are to strong. Buff all primaries or none at all. The buff all primaries introduces power creep... Leading to an eventual buff to individual weapon types to " balance " which leads to over tuning (auto rifles ) which leads to other primaries being poop again. Which leads to? Smgs need tuning to even fill their supposed cqc role [u][b]Another buff.[/b][/u] That's power creep. SMGs are fine. You even stated it. So now I'm confused... You can't say something is an outlier and the say the archetype sucks. That's literally not possible.[/quote] No i said SOME are not as bad as others they all need love but some are worse then others also power creep is an issue with out limiting factors like STEEP range drop off or low mag to rpm ratio etc, hence why I said they are all separate ideas so that some can be better combined with others like a damage handling and reload buff or a range stability and flinch buff, Power creep is real but is on an issue IF unchecked bungie is still actively nerfing lots of stuff and so creep isn't unchecked

Dude you saying buff SMGs which are 0.03 slower in ttk than most auto rifles, and they also get a real benefit from Dave perks such as kill clip, rampage, etc and lower their ttk. Hand cannons are a full 0.13 slower than autos, and have less range, and still require 3 shots with kill clip. Meaning... The same TTK. Some weapons will always outperform others within a weapon type in a game with random rolls. Some will have great range and dookie stability. Great stability and dookie handling. Etc. That's because of perks and / or base stats. Not everything will be viable. I mean hell, there's what... 4 pages of hand cannons as an example and the community uses a max of 6 in the crucible? The weapons that outperform in a couple stats aren't necessarily " outliers " because they maintain the same ttk value of all others within their rate of fire. An example of an " outlier " would be recluse procing master at arms off a shotgun kill, and having a 0.47 ttk body shot at ~24 meters of range with laser beam accuracy. That's insane. Ikelos SMG being more stable than other 750s but keeping the same ttk values? Not so much. Literally every primary is being stepped on by autos in some way or form. SMGs aren't bad at all. If they get a 20-30% damage buff........ That's [u][b]insane[/b][/u]. If you admit the the ikelos SMG is good, then use it. Do what everyone else tells hand cannon mains. " Just peek shot " 🤣

Im just gonna stop saying my same points over and over as for using smgs I do and as I said in the linked doco I used them a shit ton leading up to writing the post so I knew what I was talking about and I still use them however to attempt to make the viable I use peace keepers