To be fair, a big part of the titans low ceiling is that they have the same type of skill tree 3 times and everything beyond that it still all about melee which is powerful in meta's like shotgun rushing ones and since they just recently buffed antaeus ward. The reason hunters have high ceilings is because their abilities are more passive and are more constantly usable, but are not the easiest to make use of because they don't offer straight power like titans do so they look very underwhelming at first. But they don't need power because they've got, invisibility, smoke bombs, throwing knives and so much more that takes advantage of the map they play on. Which is the whole point of the class. Warlocks have a lot of versatile abilities...but a good chunk of them just suck and then they also have supers that have a similar issue to titans neutral, which is being too similar and very undiverse. No reason to use nova warp because top tree stormcaller has better overall capabilities in super and a good neutral for grouped up enemies and the other trees for each subclass simply change the neutral game and not much else. Meanwhile titans have the most diverse effects on their supers between skill trees while the least general neutral game diversity among them. And also I dont like the "super triangle" you have, because titans have mostly melee supers and so they have the most overall armor to begin with. Of which all of these melee supers need speed and have it like all other melee style supers. And in terms of power, titans have the most one shot capabilities out of all the classes for mobile ones but the least overall efficiency across the board and it shows on top tree hammers and striker or burning maul. What the super triangle should ACTUALLY be, is resilience, efficiency and power because speed varies too much on every class (because of teleports on dodges or whatever). Titans have high resilience and power, but the lowest efficiency. Hunters have the lowest overall resilience, but a high amount of efficiency and power. Warlocks sit more in the middle, where they have good efficiency, good armor and good all around power but they don't particularly excel at anything IN PVP due to the awkward nature of their supers and that's why dawnblade will become more popular as it continues to get buffs because it functions according to how every other super works more consistently. Warlocks definitely do deserve to get buffs, but I literally spend most comp games with no passive abilities to sustain my character except for barricade because it's the only ability that titans have that can assist them in gun fights or help you survive them. Titans are snow ball characters. They need to get going before they do anything but they become incredibly powerful once they get things moving. However, with the higher paced matches, it becomes consistently difficult to use it at all and it shows in higher end competitive play especially now that sniping is becoming even more popular and the tactics that titans benefitted from (being rushed/rushing) isn't as good as it used to be. And titans are not passive characters, they need to be aggressive to make use of their power but also struggle at the same time right now because the classes that benefit most from passive play (warlocks and hunters) are just shutting them down before they even get the chance. Again, I still think titans are better off than warlocks, but this meta is certainly not in the titans favor like it was last season, that's for damn sure.

you make it sound like our throwing knives do good damage, the only good throwing knife is 3 shot goldie and that super isnt good for pvp, 6 shot goldie doesnt even 1 shot at range and the knife does 100 dmg and dont get me started on blade barrage throwing knife if you think that its anywhere near competable with titan abilities then idk what to say

Haha this clown thinks titans (not hunters) have the lowest skill requirements. He then goes on to say the hunters require skill and titans have the best class ability. LMAO!!!

If you dont think this you're a sheep and are incapable to actually comparing things without bias. If you look at the abilities at the lowest level titans will out preform by a large margin and theres no denying that. I also said titan barrier is arguably better which is true both abilities have their strengths and weaknesses, what I think pushes dodge over the edge is the abysmal cool down. I think they should remove class ability cool downs from main stat and make all them static cool downs of 30 seconds for barrier and rift and 25 seconds for dodge. 10 second cool down on a class ability that paired with an exotic heals you is really busted. On the other hand barrier's has a lot of potential that most titans dont know about bc they dont have to in order to be effective with their barrier. Barrier's collision ends shorter than its actual model allowing any titans to shoot earlier than their opponent thinks they can, it actually looks like your shooting the barrier but you are shooting through it. If someone rushes you while you're behind the barrier you have all the advantage and if they run they have given up map control with just a click of a button, whats not good about that? In the most recent expansion pairing this ability with the new exotic lets you hard scope with practically no fear as if someone slides around a corner and trys to shoot you they will fail 100% of the time and you have 100% of the advantage. This exotic also allows you to fire back while being untouched its like having a stationary over shield. Barrier has way more potential than people think and think dodge is untouchable but news flash a dodging hunter isnt immune to damage was dodging just shoot him. One of the most meta exotics thorn is also a direct counter to dodge but no one wants to mention that either. I've never seen a player base so blatantly blind to potential or counters to perceived op untouchable abilities.

Buddy, with pvp (which is what we're talking about) it's all about activation time and speed, hunters have an instant class ability and an instant jump which is WAY more tools to disrupt enemy target acquisition than the other two classes have combined. Cool, I have a barrier that not only has a long activation time that doesnt help in a crunch but it also has a limited effect and health, honestly if a team shoots at the barrier they melt it fast and then you're stuck without cover. You do admit the health regen combined with the cooldown are a problem so I have to give you credit that you're not as bad as the dummies that say "but you have to spec speed for that" like what hunter isnt specializing in speed. Which is another point, titans only get a faster cooldown if they spec resilience which does next to nothing for you in crucible. I'm just tired of hunters complaining about other classes when literally if I hop on my hunter for his weekly stuff, crucible is wayyy easier with the twitch/reflex moves and dodges for avoiding enemy fire. It's just so much easier to sellout and be a hunter I guess.

There you go again being a sheep and ignoring anything good I said about titans or their potential and just say "hunter bad bc dodge and jump are op". If you know they are going to dodge or jump just predict it, react and secure the kill. Its a 50/50 chance they do one of those two things so its not that hard to deal with them. You want to talk about an ability to disrupt enemy target acquisition try using shoulder charge as a mobility option instead of just an offensive option. It doesnt get more instant that a shoulder charge as it travels so much faster than a dodge or hunter jump and most people dont expect titans to use shoulder charge in that way. I got a buddy that abuses the shit out of this. He the only titan I've seen abuse barrier to the point where I went from thinking "barrier is alright" to "barrier can be as good or better than dodge in many ways" obv barrier is not a get out of jail free card but you control the flow of the fight. I think map pressure and determining the speed of a fight are super underrated because its a steep learning curve for titans to get to this level, but its still there and everyone should acknowledge it before running their mouth about hunters. I said in my last post but you seem to have glazed over it, but I dont think class ability cool downs should be tied to main stat of a class. Rift, dodge, and barrier should all have static unchanging cool downs unless you use an exotic like frostees.

Buddy, your scenario of countering a dodge or jump applies to colonial warfare which nobody does in this game, dodges are a free save in hallway fights and the dodge plus jump are the mixup for short range. Nobody is sitting at mid range agreeing on a time to open fire, which is the only scenario in which you might predict the jump or dodge. How do you predict it anyway, am I to start aiming at the sky early or out at a side i have to guess they'll dodge to? NO! Because you aim at the enemy until you burn them down which both of their abilities make harder to do. I challenge you to drop a barricade in a fight and if you survive putting it down you just cost yourself most of your health and they'll either jump over/around and finish you off, or use an aoe pool grenade to clip through the barrier and finish you that way because barrier doesnt block that either.. The only practical use for the barrier is to place it ahead of time in which they'll just wait the barrier out or bring the full team to come burn it down. Also, duh about using the shoulder charge to the side for throwing off, except it requires a build-up period... like, make the hunter have to sprint for a second before they can dodge and listen to all the cries on the forums. Hunters really dont understand how good they got it and to claim the titan has no weaknesses please tell me a hunter's weaknesses because with all the mobility and direction changes they still have just as much health as the other 2 classes which are far less mobile.

People do fight at mid range all the time at a place called a choke point, not sure if you've heard the term at this point. If I told you yes, you should aim where you think your target is going to be. You still think thats a dumb idea? Its no surprise you arent getting any better and complaining on the forums. You cant just put a barrier down in the middle of a fight but you cant just dodge in the middle of one either unless you are rolling behind cover. Try running into mid and dodging tell me how well that goes for you. You also put barriers in worst case scenario where its you alone with a barrier vs 6 people firing at it which 90% of the time is not the case. What im talking about is comp and trials I could not care less about scenarios in non-competitive gamemodes as they ultimately dont matter because those game modes are for fun. If you want to say barrier is completely -blam!-ing useless bc 6 people can break it in 3 seconds thats a really dumb way of using a barrier and is a reflection of your poor skill and not the ability itself. Also I didnt say you can instantly shoulder charge but you said hunters are the only class that can disrupt opponent target acquisition which I just proved to you is false titans can also do it. I also never said titans dont have weaknesses nor did I say hunter have it bad either. What I am sayin is that both classes are very strong in their own right and they both have potential to be the best. Im a warlock main since the launch of D2 and from playing the game seeing friends dominate as both the hunter class and the titan class they are both really good classes. I just think titan abilities are underrated.