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Destiny 2

Destiny 2 について話し合おう
DuBChiri2により編集済み: 4/2/2020 6:35:00 PM
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My problem with titans in pvp.

Edit: let me clarify something real quick. This is mostly about consistency to activate said neutral games, not me saying titans are weak nor am I saying they are in any sort of position to need buffs in the first place. I just find getting the more useful passive abilities of the skill trees specifically on the ones I talk about below to be infrequent and I don't quite like that in a pvp scenario. In pve that's not a problem at all and I believe they are very useful in those activities. But then comes the skill tree that literally does it all, bottom tree striker and it keeps getting nerfed, but this time because of popularity and it's the most popular for a reason. My starting argument regarding bottom tree striker: [spoiler]So we all know that bottom tree striker, at the very least neutral game wise, is the best titan skill tree for pvp and for those of you that don't fully know why, allow me to quickly explain it. Heal on melee kills, causing a targets health to reach a certain thresh hold greatly boosts your melee lunge range AND melee damage by 60% for 5 seconds and is refreshable, your charged melee also grants a stupidly high boost to stability AS WELL as gun damage for 12 seconds AND reloads your weapon from reserves. This is easily the most stacked titan skill tree for crucible because its consistently capable of using its neutral game to its maximum potential AND it is incredibly potent once it gets rolling. But it also doesn't sacrifice the super for neutral game either. It uses less energy than top tree striker for the light attack, restores super energy per kill and it also can apply knockout to further increase the light attacks damage so that it easily 2 shots supers (against another striker it only does 93 damage, but with knock out it easily 2 shots and will do so for the next 5 seconds). One or the other by itself makes it one of the most lethal skill trees in the game and its survived numerous nerfs to both and still remains the best titan skill tree for pvp while being one of the most potent at the same time in pve.[/spoiler] And so here is where I start talking about the issues I have with the titan class as a whole at least in pvp: None of them do what bottom tree striker does on a comparable level in pvp. Every titan skill tree has its uses and it's very powerful gimmicks, but most of them cannot consistently activate their neutral game in pvp because they are too reliant on ability kills to activate them and in pvp it can be a real struggle successfully killing someone with something like a grenade or a charged melee and walking away to make full use of it. Bottom tree sunbreaker is easily one of the most potent pvp skill trees in the game and for good reason, because it offers a flat heal on ability kills, ability regen, a damage increase and the strongest DoT circle of death in the game and you can chain it while also having the most potent form of sunbreaker to boot. However, it's so difficult to activate in pvp (unless you cheese kills with ashen wake of course) that you might only see it usable after you activate your super which can be anywhere from the end of a trials match, to round 3 of a comp game or 5 minutes in to a clash game. I've averaged maybe 3 times off of ability kills per clash game which is so infrequent that you are spending most of your time without a neutral game to begin with. A very similar problem is in place for both top tree hammers and bottom tree sentinel. They both have a shoulder charge melee, but unlike top tree fist of havoc, they both have little to no capabilities beyond that. Getting tempered metal on sunbreaker or the grenade regen on sentinel is so uncommon that the shoulder charge acts like more of a neutral game than the entirety of the skill tree. And unlike bottom tree striker, they both sacrifice survivability for straight power. Even top tree striker does this, but it also offers more effective grenades and grenade regen on hitting targets with your shoulder charge so it's much more balanced out while it's only real sacrifice is efficiency in super, which isn't the biggest deal and its survivability issues can be supplemented with an exotic. And for the most part none of this necessarily matters because guns are what wins games, but at the same time having most of the titans skill trees be functionally the same or doing nothing most of the time feels like a detriment especially when cooldowns also make it so much worse than it already is. And as to how they could remedy this...I don't know. I don't want to break titans by buffing the shit out of them when they don't necessarily need it, but I feel like my options in crucible are just too limited at the moment if I want to maximize the potency of the class I play. I've pretty much mained sunbreaker since it came out, bottom tree specifically, but in higher end competitive modes like trials and comp I'm starting to feel lack luster, at least compared to bottom tree striker. Because at the same time, I could just be using top tree sunbreaker which gives me a neutral game through a shoulder charge but nothing else or stick to striker exclusively. Some of you might not really care about the power of a neutral game...but it sure does make the class more fun when it's doing something interesting. Even though warlocks aren't exactly good in pvp, I find their diversity in abilities and neutral game to be a big selling point of the class, the same thing goes for hunters. Because with their diversity in skill trees, you can adjust your playstyle to it and be more potent for doing so. Meanwhile titans still just run at you and punch you into goop on pretty much every skill tree. But that's why bottom tree striker will always be the best titan skill tree. Because it goopifies enemies consistently, more easily and at the cost of nothing. It will always be titans best option because of this fact alone. I don't think anyone can deny that it's good and unless they nerf it into the ground it will always be good. Meanwhile the other skill trees I specifically mentioned are more situationally good (shoulder charge kills, super) but at the same time are limited by the size of cooldowns and their lack of overall passive neutral game, UNLESS you can kill someone with said abilities (which isn't hard in things like quickplay, but is far more difficult in the upper tiers of pvp, which is where I find myself playing as of this time). Thank you for reading this if you did, I know it's a very long post and I hope this doesn't come off as a person whining because of a lack of success. I just want the class i play to feel a little more unique while at the same time offering more consistent potency because those trees I specifically mentioned just feel too limited in activation. They don't have to adjust anything at all, I'm just giving my thoughts on the matter because it's a pvp oriented season.

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  • Titans (at least top tree hammer) are still head and shoulders the weakest class in pvp. They are OHK in their super by every other super, yet it takes 3-4 hammers to shut down every other one.

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  • mikeyrox1234により編集済み: 4/2/2020 5:13:08 PM
    [b][u]Sunbreaker[/u][/b]: - Top tree needs a rework - Middle tree needs a rework - Bottom tree needs a SMALL buff Sunbreaker super needs a SMALL buff but also a Hammer of Sol needs to have Suncharge from D1. Instead of throwing a hammer at someone that is 2 feet away we should be able to Suncharge, same with Dawnblade [b][u]Sentinel[/u][/b]: - Too tree needs fixing and SMALL buff - Middle tree needs a rework - Bottom tree needs a SMALL buff Sentinel Shield super needs a buff/fix in general [u][b]Striker[/b][/u]: - Top tree needs a rework or buff - Middle tree needs a rework - Bottom tree needs a rework Striker... too much to discuss for a short description.

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    13 通の返信
    • Idk. Some skill trees feel built more towards PvP and some to PvE. Mid tree striker is a stomper in PvP and PvE but it's super is a one hit and done. Mid tree Hammers is devastating in both. Top tree sentinel and bottom are viable in both. I just get tired of one thing as a titan. Absurd lack of melee lock on (charges are okay doesn't bother me if I miss those)

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      3 通の返信
      • Honestly, if they would just fix hit registration on sentinel I'd be happy. It's such a pain I was playing comp the other day. Hit a hunter in the air, didnt damage him jus knocked him back and then my super ended as he was running away. He then proceeded to double back pop his super and won the round. It's so inconsistent. I'd also argue sentinel takes too long to activate. Nothing like trying to pop super and get obliterated because the animation takes too long. I'd prefer something to hammers animation instead.

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      • Wow I thought I was the only one that thought this. Aside from bottom tree striker and top tree striker, every other subclass has no neutral game at all. Absolutely no passive perks that help players slay out. It’s a shame to be honest.

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        6 通の返信
        • Knock back use to be amazing with the synth, but with the change of double primary, it was never adjusted. Things like the warlock and hunter have had some pretty amazing build changes to be desired and other than middle striker, middle hammers, and bubble, everything is pretty meh. We have sidearms, smg, anything with quick draw, to counter shoulder. Not to mention, I’m had shoulders that should have connected brush past me. Only to their dismay, they wrote themselves off and accepted their fate. Agreed. They are lacking a bit in pvp now that they’ve nerfed their OP exotics - wormhusk arms and OEM.

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        • If you don't like Titan, use one of the other classes 👍

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          1 返信
          • I play top striker all the time. Never touch bottom. Top's super needs to pop the wave on the initial slam, the first slam is a waste slam to open the super and people already running/floating by the time the second one comes around, that wave is SUPER helpful and needs to happen with the opening slam.

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            3 通の返信
            • The thing about titans is their neutral perks are just bonuses bc their base kit is so well rounded on many subclasses. The problem is the titan class has such a low skill floor that a majority of titans get by without needing to even master any of their classes. Thats why you see many titans in the mid to high elo spectrum but none at the top bc hunters have a higher skill floor and ceiling so players who are serious about "getting good" pick them. They also look edgy so theres just a bigger player pool of hunters meaning statistically the numbers are going to favor hunters simply bc more players pick hunter. If you hear the "titans arent OP all the best pvp players are hunters" thats why. Your supers carry players for the most part and since the other two classes dont have any way to suppress you without their own super, heavy ammo, or landing a headshot with a 72rpm sniper titans get to steam roll in super for free at the mid level of play but not high lvl play. I have a thing called the super triangle that I wish bungie would adopt when thinking about buffs and nerfs to supers. On the triangle you have speed, resilience, and power. Titan supers tend to have 2 or all 3 of these things in spades and I dont think a single one of their supers have only 1 of these attributes. This is more apparently if you look at the worse super in the game even after I think two buffs now which is nova warp. Its slow, dies quickly, and doesnt pack any punch at all while looking at any of the titan supers its at least more powerful than nova warp and can tank more hits. Titan neutral game is better than you think and I can prove that their neutral perks that proc after killin someone are just icing on that cake. Shoulder charge is a great tool for mobility and faking people out just as much as it is a good offensive option but I dont see many titan players abusing it in this way. Barrier is arguably the most powerful class ability if you can abuse it properly, but like I said due to low skill requirements most players dont think about using any of the titans kit in a not straight forward way. Even without abusing hitboxes and the weird nature of titan barrier in its most basic form it still lets people get free heavy, reses, and capture progression on points. Can you say the same about a hunter dodge or a warlock rift? maybe for capture progression but id still say the titan barrier is best for that. Titans are also the only class in the game to be able to suppress other classes until this season where warlocks got a helm that can do it but its not as reliable. Titans can suppress with nades of which they can use an exotic to get two charges, shoulder charge on sentinel(which is a cone and can suppress multiple supers given the circumstances), and 1 shot any super in the game with any shoulder charge in the game with paragon greaves. TL;DR titans have good melee abilities, grenades, and a class ability potentially better than hunter dodge if you use it with a brain on top of having the most viable supers in the game. Why do titans need any kind of buffs or passive perks again? As a warlock main I roll my eyes when I see titan buffs considering all they have but 90% of them dont even use while if I use anything thats just slightly over tuned it gets murdered. TL;DR of my whole post leave titans how they are and buff warlocks/fix all their bugged perks ffs there was an entire reddit thread of them that got upvoted to shit and I havent seen a single one of those bugs fixed.

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              10 通の返信
              • I stopped reading at bottom tree sentinel, you understand that the shoulder charge can shutdown supers right? All you need to do is hit them and their out and suppressed. As well that super gets 2 shields to throw I believe, do you know how good the tracking on those things are? I played trials and it bounced off like 4 walls just to hit me, it has constant tracking and it can be spammed, in CQC maps it tears (like wormhaven). As well suppressors are probably the most powerful grenade in the game with the ability to SHUTDOWN supers, you can be hit by the AoE effect but still take no damage, you can hide behind crates and you will still be hit. How is there no neutral game? It has better neutral game then top and middle since they both require kills to do anything bottom doesn’t. Maybe bottom tree sunbreaker isnt that useful but thats because how OP top tree is in PvP, the mini hanmers that come out of your main hammer are just as strong, and you have a shoulder charge. I dunno where you get the idea that titans are weak

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                25 通の返信
                • I thought this post was gonna be “why titans are broken in pvp” and I said to myself, “this guy gets it” About warlocks having “diversity in skill trees and neutral games”, no, for every possible good neutral game a warlock can have, you have to give up a good super.

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                  24 通の返信
                  • I agree with most of what you're saying, but you did miss one point that's been on the rise since the 2.8.0 Update. [b][u]Code of the Missile[/u][/b] - more consistent Thundercrash super - Inertia Override when sliding over ammo reloads your current weapon and gives a damage buff - Death From Above melee causes damage, knocks back enemies, procs Inertia Override, and gives a chunk of super energy on enemy kills. Ever since the change to this subclass tree, CotM has gained popularity. Pair this tree with Antaeus Wards, and you've got a sliding shotgun user's dream loadout. Even without being a shotgun slider, this subclass tree is still quite viable. I wouldn't put it on Code of the Juggernaut's level when it comes to consistency, but I think it rivals it when tree synergy comes into play.

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                    4 通の返信
                    • Fists of havoc aren't even good. Its design makes it not work. The attack can't be spammed (like spectral, arc staff) which means you are punished more when it doesn't register (all the time) or when the lunge is just out of range. It is also incredibly easy to shutdown now.

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                      7 通の返信
                      • TLDR

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                        5 通の返信
                        • Suggestions?

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                          1 返信
                          • Funny, I was thinking the same thing when i trying to decide what subclass to use for trials.

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                            2 通の返信
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