That's pathetic. Now, I don't hate people that are religious but come on. I don't know if you agree, but religion is the real war that needs to be fought in this world. It's holding our species back.

[quote]but religion is the real war that needs to be fought in this world. It's holding our species back.[/quote] Disagree. Don't confuse religious authoritarianism for religion.

I've noticed you love arguing with people, no hate, just think you're more of what this world needs. People that are willing to speak their mind.

[quote]People that are willing to speak their mind.[/quote] I like IDEAS.....and a good debate. :) Substitute "tribalism" for "religion" in your original statement....and we're in agreement. The sins that you attribute (rightly) to religion are what happens when tribalism and religion mix. But when religious/spiritual belief evolves PAST that tribalism, you get people who are some of the greatest human beings this world has ever produced....and its greatest advocates for justice and peaceful co-existence.

Can we at least agree that religion makes people numb to facts? It really does, no matter how much scientific evidence, mathematical equations and logic you use, not all, but a lot of religious people(not just Christianity) will deny it. Edit: Studies have shown that religion has a way of rewiring the brain. And gives people a sense of love which is similar to using recreational drugs.

[i]"If Buddhist doctrine is found to be in conflict with Science, then it is Buddhist doctrine that must change". [/i] ----Tenzin Gyatso, HH The Fourteenth Dalai Lama. Religion doesn't make people numb to facts. FEAR makes people numb to facts because new facts can challenge people's comfortable sense of CERTAINTY. One of places that FEARFUL people seek the comfort of CERTAINTY is in rigid religious (fundamentalist) and political (extremist) ideologies. My point is that you are confusing the EFFECT for the CAUSE. What you are objecting to is the way PEOPLE are at a certain level of Individual and Cultural development. Religion is not that cause of those traits....but a particular type of RELATIONSHIP TO RELIGION is emblematic of that stage of development. Once someone----and a culture---evolve PAST that point....religion and spiritual belief take on a very different nature. ...and the Rational and the Non-Rational are not seen as adversaries....but as differing ways of engaging the world and expressing our humanity..... ...that need to brought into a healthy BALANCE. Which---although they were both Popes in the Catholic Church----Pope Francis sounds VERY different from Pope John Paul III did when both spoke of Christian faith...and what it meant to be a Christian. John Paul tended to speak more of obedience to church doctrine. Francis tends to speak more of personal evolution and trying to LIVE the example of Unconditional Love and Compassion that Jesus of Nazereth embodied. IMHO, one represents a vastly more mature understanding of Christianity than the other.

Not to get too personal, but are you an atheist as well?

In a general sense, I think religion is the epitome of human complacency, and that it was born out of our fear of the unknown and death.

[quote]In a general sense, I think religion is the epitome of human complacency, and that it was born out of our fear of the unknown and death.[/quote] Disagree. Religion/Spirituality is a non-rational means of trying to explore and understand the nature of this "mystery" we are living..... ....and to answer the questions of "How should we live?" and "What is of ultimate importance?"

I agree that that’s why we have those kinds of beliefs. I just don’t find them to be particularly rational. I feel like our best chance at improving our situation requires fully accepting and embracing it in the first place. Which I think would mean we have to move past replacing unknowns with those kinds of ideas. I think that we too often assume that something is out there that might save us from ourselves.

"Did you love your father?" "What?" "Did you love your father?" "Huh....of course I did." "Prove it to me..." This iconic exchange between Jodie Foster's and Matthew McCaughnahay's characters in the movie "Contact" points out the fundamental flaw in your position....and the ultimate BIAS of Western Civilization as a whole. The point of the exchange is that McCaughnahay's character understands that there IS no Rational response to his question...and no OBJECTIVE or RATIONAL means by which to "prove" a subjective, phenomenological experience. The love a child for a cherished parent. Reason is NOT the highest expression of what it means to be Human....and not everything that makes life liveable is a RATIONAL issue. In fact...do you know what you get when you get someone who makes every decision by power of "reason"? At best? You get someone paralyzed by indecision. He can clearly articulate all of his options, but cannot prioritize among them, or make a final decision (Alexithymia). At worst? You get a psychopath. The emotions DRIVE....Reason GUIDES. A balanced, healthy person needs to be grounded in BOTH the Rational and the non-rational. Working together in a healthy balance. Spiritual practice that has evolved BEYOND the "mythic" (traditional/fundamentalist) level of understanding are powerful tools in bringing people into that kind of healthy balance...and answer those questions in non-destructive, non-conflict provoking ways. Which is why we are seeing an expansion and growth in comptemplative and yogic spiritual practices...by people who are at the point of personal development such that they are ready to undertake them.

I won’t argue the validity of what I would call something more akin to self reflection. Some would call it meditation. There are several comparable practices that obviously have positive effects. The word spiritual is a funny thing to me because people seem to use it in such varied ways that it seems vague and to be kind of a “catch all” term for those kinds of things. I think separating it from the religious side of things would be more along the lines of what I’m thinking. Letting go of anthropomorphic deities that judge and punish us, etc.

[quote]The word spiritual is a funny thing to me because people seem to use it in such varied ways that it seems vague and to be kind of a “catch all” term for those kinds of things. I[/quote] That's Rationalism talking. Its only "vague" because you are trying to understand something Intellectually that can only be understood experientially. [quote] Letting go of anthropomorphic deities that judge and punish us, etc.[/quote] That's only ONE vision of the Divine...and not even the most common one. Its just the one you are most familiar with by having been born-and-raised in a society that is founded upon one of the Abrahamic religious traditions. Don't let the loudest voice in the room, fool you into thinking its the only voice in the choir.

I guess I just don’t find relying on the experiential to be unreasonable. I agree with what you said about the rise of those other practices. I think it’s why more abstract notions of god are coming about as well. The more we learn about our surroundings the more we adjust our views. It’s why god has gone from the mountains to the clouds to the stars to beyond the stars to outside the universe to now being described as immaterial. Which I honestly don’t understand the appeal of because people now seem to attribute god with qualities that make it indistinguishable from something that doesn’t exist. The thought of subscribing to ideas like that we can’t verify or demonstrate experimentally feels dishonest to me. I guess I’d rather just have no answer than impose one that I can’t, I guess literally, “wrap my hands around.”

[quote]Which I honestly don’t understand the appeal of because people now seem to attribute god with qualities that make it indistinguishable from something that doesn’t exist. The thought of subscribing to ideas like that that I can’t verify it demonstrate experimentally feels dishonest to me[/quote] Beause of the culture you've been raised in and how that culture has conditioned you to think. Reason and science are wonderful tools. Maps are wonderful tools for getting around. But the MAP is NEVER the TERRITORY. Just because a HAMMER is your favorite tool doesn't mean all of Reality is a NAIL. [quote]I guess I’d rather just have no answer than impose one that I can’t, I guess literally, “wrap my hands around.”[/quote] IOW, you'd rather insist that its "unknowable" than to accept an answer that comes in a form other than the one you prefer? Seems you're falling victim to the same bad habits as the religious people you are criticizing. (Checkmate....but thanks for the honesty. You're farther along the path than most who claim to be atheists...and far closer to seeing that Materialism is just another rigid ideology with its own unprovable postulates...than most.)

I think it would be more accurate to say that I accept that it’s CURRENTLY unknowable. I won’t assume that it will always be unknowable. I just think that we should objectively pursue truth without letting what we merely WANT to be true get in the way of that pursuit. I think that’s our best chance at improving this situation we find ourselves in called life, and cultivating a way of life that maximizes general well being for as many as possible.

[quote]I think it would be more accurate to say that I accept that it’s CURRENTLY unknowable. I won’t assume that it will always be unknowable.[/quote] Distinction without a difference. The issue is not the destination. Its the confirmation bias route you took to get there. [quote] just think that we should objectively pursue truth without letting what we merely WANT to be true get in the way of that pursuit.[/quote] ..and what makes you think that all truths are objectively knowable? ...what makes you think that some truths don't have to be subjectively experienced in order to be understood? [quote] I think that’s our best chance at improving this situation we find ourselves in called life, and cultivating a way of life that maximizes general well being.[/quote] Take it from a lifelong applied scientist. Science makes a wonderful servant....and a horrific master. The same science that created the Polio vaccine and HIV anti-retrovirals....also created weapons of mass destruction and the industrialized slaughter such that we are still pulling human remains out of the Flanders Field a hundred years after the end of WWI. The rational only tells us HOW to do it. The Non-rational us what to do with what we know....and what's important. Science---when guided by a compassionate heart and a healthy conscience---is a wonderful force for good. But when guided by fear, hatred, ignorance, and greed....it is a potent a destructive force as any horde of locust. The tool isn't the issue....its the head, heart and HAND behind it that determines what's done with it.

I just worry about accountability when it comes to that. When it comes to things that can’t be demonstrated and verified. I think what you said about science applies to spiritual/religious ideas as well. People have used the notion of gods and an afterlife to do some horrible things and they thought they were justified. It does ultimately come down to us either way. We are our own masters in a way I guess. I just wish we could get beyond the idea that we so readily need to be ruled in such ways. I just have never felt like I needed that kind of guidance when it comes to something like not treating others poorly, respecting the notion of personal bodily autonomy, etc. I guess we all have our biases. Honestly, I’ve had a realization that I’ve struggled with since I had it and I’m not sure what to do with it. I fail to see how this life could ever be enough for me. I’m way too curious to have been born in a time where we are aware of scope of what is beyond this tiny rock we find ourselves on, but are unable to yet explore it. Where people seem to cling to old ideas that originate from before we knew where the sun went at night. I guess I feel stuck and no spiritual or experiential prospect seems to quell it.

[quote]I just worry about accountability when it comes to that.[/quote] By what measuring stick? [quote]When it comes to things that can’t be demonstrated and verified. [/quote] Again by what measuring stick. [quote]I think what you said about science applies to spiritual/religious ideas as well.[/quote] All systems of thought have their postulates. Things you have to accept without proof. Even science. Science just has very few of them....and tends to be self-correcting when it gets things wrong. Not a magic bullet. [quote]People have used the notion of gods and an afterlife to do some horrible things and they thought they were justified[/quote] People have used and abused Science in the same way. The racism and genocide of Nazism grew out a perversion of Evolution theory and the Gene theory of inheritance. Once again. its not the TOOL that determines what is done with it...but the intentions behind its user. [quote]I just have never felt like I needed that kind of guidance when it comes to something like not treating others poorly, respecting the notion of personal bodily autonomy, etc.[/quote] Another aspect of your cultural conditioning. Western civilization is so steeped in the moral code of Christianity ....and the values of the European Enlightenment....that we're often too immersed in it to see it at work. But just because you don't realize that you are operating according the moral values of Christianity doesn't mean you aren't doing so. [quote]I guess we all have our biases.[/quote] Yes. Which is why I said earlier that you are farther along the path than most Rational Materialists ("atheists"). You actually have a degree of self-awareness that you are operating under the biasing effects of an ideology. Even though you (understandably) are trying to defend those biases. Most Materialists are unaware of it...and arrogantly think they are the only ones in possession of objective Truth. When the reality is that they are just adherents to a religion where Reason and Rationality have become the Godhead that is "worshipped". [quote]Where people seem to cling to old ideas that originate from before we knew where the sun went at night. I guess I feel stuck and no spiritual or experiential prospect seems to quell it.[/quote] You're not stuck. YOU JUST READY TO GET STARTED. :) The reason why you feel stuck is you are too busy staring at OTHER people's limiting paradigms that you are failing to see....and deal with....your own. Stop making a TOTEM out of Reason....and a Universe of possibilities will open to you. Trust me. I've been where you are. Which is why I recognize that you're **almost** ready.

[quote]and that it was born out of our fear of the unknown and death.[/quote] Says it all right there. I have one last question, have you told your family about you being an atheist? Sorry for getting personal, I just would like to know how they reacted. When I told my mom she said she could care less. Then when I told my dad he said I was going to hell, even went on to talk about Adam and Eve as if they were real, which we now know they weren't because of evolution. And I'm scared to tell my grandma and the rest of the family because they're so religious.

They aren’t super religious, so it’s not something I’ve never been concerned with. If they ask, I’ll tell them.

[quote]it’s not something I’ve never been concerned with[/quote] You might want to take out the not because right here you're implying that you have been concerned with it. Just thought you should know lol.