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originally posted in: THE WINNOWER IS NOT THE WITNESS
7/8/2022 11:47:44 PM
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In Unveiling, Winnower ascribed the thoughts and actions of the Traveler to be that of the Gardner. So the Winnower confirmed the Traveler is the Gardner. Nothing confirms the Witness is the Winnower, the lore indicates that they are not.
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  • I have something l, the gardener tried to keep the flowers alive When the going gets tuff the traveler gets going

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  • The flower game wasn’t real, there was no risk involved. The Winnower didn’t mind the Gardner playing with the flower. Trying to save every species would get it killed before it found one worthy of the Light and capable of defeating the Darkness. I mean, the Gardner is no one’s [i]friend[/i]. The civilizations it’s uplifted haven’t all been good either. It’s something I questioned for a while. Just how good can it be? Thankfully, there is an answer. It cares but respects our choices. In Clovis Brays Missing Journal pages, he dies/nearly dies on the operating table and has a vision, where he speaks with a white female wolf with a star for an eye. This is the Gardner. During their talk, Clovis asks why she let him do so many terrible things. She says it was his choice to make and that the best voices aren’t heard (or something to that effect) Basically saying, ‘I gave you gifts, YOU made Choices. I’m not here to dictate to you what to do. Though I hope you’d be better’ It talks some more about past disappointments that are likely the previous civilizations it helped. So really, to me that says it found all those previous ones unworthy to be trusted with Light. D1 grimiore cards Dreams of Alpha Lupi showed that the Traveler could sense something special about of system when it was coming here. We just don’t know what that special thing is. The imagery in the card is rather vague.

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  • Also can we bathe agree that the Vex were the agents to bring about the Final Shape in the Flower Game?

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  • They were the dominant pattern every time it seems. The Winnower was quite the fanboy of them. They were the winners so much the Gardner changed the rules to give others a chance lol I’d definitely like to see them gain real paracausal power and become the terror we’ve feared all this time.

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  • I think that’ll happen post Light Dark Saga

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  • I thought that was Vex Mya that nearly killed Clovis, I thought he had a dream with the wolf

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  • Ok that makes sense

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  • Edited by LikwiD_SmOkE22: 7/9/2022 8:04:18 PM
    The traveler & gardener are not the same just like the witness isn't the winnower. This is wrong. We only know the winnowers perspective & it always speaks in a singular fashion. The witness speaks in plural from using "we" several times in shadowkeep & witch queen. The traveler is a proxy of the gardener. Just like the witness & the disciples are for the winnower.

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  • The Winnower made the connection. It ascribes the actions, intentions and thoughts of the Gardner to the Traveler. Read Unveiling. The Winnower is only known character in the game that has first hand knowledge of the Gardner. So there is no ground to contest it presently.

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  • There is nothing in that lore book stating the traveler & gardener are one and the same. The traveler is a proxy of the gardener. Unless more detail is provided it's not safe to assume they are the same.

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  • Edited by MC 077 Lasombra: 7/10/2022 7:49:21 PM
    The Winnower calls the Traveler the Gardner. It’s not an assuming anything. Unveiling: The Wager “It was the gardener that chose you from the dead. I wouldn't have done that. It's just not in me. But now that they have invested themself in you, you are incredibly, uniquely special. That wandering refugee chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil." The gardener is all in. They are playing for keeps. And they are wrong. Or so I argue: for, after all, the universe is undecidable. There is no destiny. We're all making this up as we go along. Neither the gardener nor I know for certain that we're eternally, universally right. But we can be nothing except what we are. You have a choice. You are the gardener's final argument. It would mean everything if I could convince you that I am the right and only way. I truly value you. To the gardener, you are a means to an end. To me, you are majestic. Majestic. You are full of the only thing worth anything at all.” That’s a confirmation from the only person who knows the Gardner personally. So first hand knowledge. You’re citing what to counter this? Can’t really argue against that without some lore to cite.

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  • 1
    Eliksni Gunslinger
    Eliksni Gunslinger

    "We Fight For Great Machine Together" - old

    Another thing to consider is the witness is a late creation , when the unveiling was written(all the way back before Beyond Light) the witness didn't exist , after Season Of Splicer we learned of an "Entity" that took the Taken from Savathun So it's possible the winnower is the witness, and bungie just wanted to give darkness a face, because we have seen and know the light, but we knew so little about the dark side(not a star wars pun) and a villain you have never seen rarely works

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  • What about the moment when we as a player saw a scene where what looks like a reflection of our gaurdian speaking to us someplace at top of a place somewhere on Venus (I think?). I remember a qoute: “we are not your friend. We are not your enemy. We are your ‘salvation’.” This is way before the Beyond Light season. I dont remember much more about that.

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  • Ah, yeah. The orb in the lunar pyramid. This was in SK. That was the Witness, you can tell from the way it talks and what it says. Matches up perfectly. We were in the Black Garden during that cut scene. You can tell because our Guardian stands between the clone and the stump of the Tree of Silver Wings.

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  • That was the Witness

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  • Sorry I was unclear in the beginning. The Witness likely isn’t a recent creation, he’s probably been around as a concept since the beginning. The Winnower is the newest addition.

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  • Oh he is definitely a late creation. Bungie gave that away years ago. When base D2 released, Bungie put out a vidoc and in it they were saying the base game focuses on the Light because they hadn’t worked out what the Darkness was yet. The Witness took place of every known instance of the Darkness doing/saying something in early lore except for one type of interaction. When Oryx spoke with the Darkness. That’s the only confirmed Winnower interaction anymore. So the Winnower has been rather hands off for all of known Destiny history. Much like the Gardner. But oddly, the Dark Statue is female. The gender of the Gardner. In most myths about creation, there is either a sole female or a male and female duo. So a statue of the Winnower should be masculine. I think they went with the original idea but with a small twist. OG storyline was basically the Traveler was the sole source of paracausal power. Darkness was just corrupted Light. To stop the Darkness, we’d need to sacrifice the Light. Ulan-Tans theory of Symmetry. It was the only ‘what is the darkness’ in game theory that carried over to 2, they even made a lost sector for Ulan-Tan. Unveiling made another change, it made paracausality a cosmic rule that wasn’t dependent on the Gods. Meaning they could die and paracausal power, in general, would continue. Throw in the lead Bungie dev who confirmed the Dark and Light Saga will end? I think they are going with a two faced God approach. The Gardner and Winnower are either the same person or otherwise inseparably attached. I’ve been suspecting this since base D2, when they showed the Travelers Vision cutscene. Which showcased the major beats to the future narrative. It plays in reverse chronological order, so the first scene with the White bird flying in the darkness? Right after a showdown between the Black Fleet and a repaired Traveler? Tells me they both go bye bye in that fight.

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