You are once again ignoring evidence from the Exo Stranger. [quote]Watching Guardian-Hive engagements confirms a trajectory toward Earth. This Moon is theirs — a breeding ground, their black heart, perhaps. Different from that we know, but seems to be that same dark end I see us fall to over and over.[/quote] and [quote]This attempt was precise — landed meters and minutes from prior ritual. Confirmed the extraction was extinguished. [b]The Little Light mentioned Venus, we may have another.[/b][/quote] Note the part in bold. and [quote]I always stand here, resolute. Then fall back to that point, there, where everything shatters... (The sky isn't special here, certainly no better than any other sky, but it's the view I know best.) The silent avalanche begins. Rock and dust. Falling chaos. Machines, as a rule, hate chaos. Our enemies outflank us from below, above, left, right, before, beyond. The Traveler - shattering. There are always the dead. Their names shift. Sometimes I think I see myself among the dead.[/quote] Dr Shim's theory on Venus [quote]I think the Traveler did something paracausal to Venus. Something that cut across space and time. The Citadel seems to come from the past of a different Venus than our own. It doesn't have to make any sense by our logic, any more than the Moon's new gravity.[/quote] It's pretty clear that Dr Shim is talking about an alternate timeline. Or the analysis of the weapon No Time to Explain [quote]Novarro's timeline analysis indicates the weapon is the fabled Exo Stranger's Rifle, enhanced at a future point in this continuity and then sent back to this present. Deliah's timeline analysis indicates the weapon was built by Praedyth, who based it on his own version of the Exo Stranger's Rifle, and then set it adrift in a time ripple. Hari's timeline analysis indicates the weapon was built by beings of unidentifiable origin, and arrived here by pure accident. Inachis's timeline analysis indicates the weapon originates from Earth, late Golden Age, and will eventually be lost to time ripples once again, where its systems will degrade and be replaced until our recent past acquires it as the Exo Stranger's Rifle.[/quote] Vex Mythoclast - which mentions it is from the future [quote]...a causal loop within the weapon's mechanism, suggesting that the firing process somehow binds space and time into... Some legends live forever. Others are overwritten - reshaped by the sheer will of those who believe that any ordeal can be conquered, any foe vanquished, any god cast down. The Mythoclast is a Vex instrument from some far-flung corner of time and space, mysteriously fit for human hands. Its origins, mechanism of action, and ultimate purpose remain unknown. Perhaps it will reveal itself to you, in time...[/quote] There is also Saint-14's shotgun Perfect Paradox which appears to contain a message to us [quote]I never found Osiris, but I've killed enough Vex to end a war. And they, in turn, struck a fatal blow: they completed a Mind with the sole function to drain the Light from me. It worked very well. Don't worry (not that you worry much). It took them centuries to build, keyed to the unique frequency of my Light. And I sit atop its shattered husk. I mourn that I will never reach the heights you have. To me, you represent everything a Guardian can become. [b]Yours is a thriving City. So different from mine. My whole fourteenth life I fought to make my City yours. I never finished. All I have left is this weapon. The Cryptarchs say you crafted it yourself, built it out of scraps and Light and sheer will, inside the Infinite Forge. I'll make sure it finds its way back to you. When you gave it to me, I swore I would make it my duty to follow your example.[/b] I'm still trying.[/quote] MIDA multi-tool [quote]I gave Lakshmi the weapon for her take. She insinuates that it came from another timeline, perhaps through Golden Age experiments. That means it's outside your jurisdiction to ban.[/quote] The last one has nothing to do with the Vex or their Infinite Forest. It was made by a rebel group on Mars that the Cryptarchs have no record of MIDA.

[quote] Also throne worlds are called cyst universes, also referred to as bubbles within this universe. Like a cyst under your skin. The inside is separated but it still exists within the host.[/quote] Throne worlds are not apart of our universe. They exist in a place that Toland calls the Overworld. The Hive call it the Sword World or the netherworld. They are cysts of the Overworld, a part of the ascendent realm. [i]Now I fly between green-black suns in the labyrinth beyond Crota’s god-star. This is the Overworld, the Sea of Screams, where the throne-universes of the great Hive fester in eternal majesty. I move among them. I map the shapes and connections of this world.[/i] - Toland It was in the Overworld/Sword World that Oryx killed Akka [i]In the cold abyss of the sword world, King Aurash walked under a cloak of green fire. He walked through the sky and the sky shuddered and froze beneath his feet. He walked until he found Akka, the Worm of Secrets, who was denying a truth until it became a lie.[/i] [quote]The Deep and Sky are not explained in the slightest as to their nature or origin, so you’re guessing that they aren’t still connected to this universe. The only time we see something that [i]might[/i] be the Deep is in Oryxs throneworld.[/quote] He went out of his throne world into the Overworld, the abyss to speak with the Deep/Darkness [i]Oryx went down into his throne world. He went out into the abyss, and with each step he read one of his tablets, so that they became like stones beneath his feet.[/i] Whilst he was there his sisters trapped him there. This is what Xivu says [i]BETRAYAL. We have marooned Oryx within the Deep. This is our obligation as lords of the Hive, to make war upon each other, to eradicate weakness and make ourselves sharp.[/i] They didn't trap him in our universe or his own throne world, they trapped him in the Deep. Calus also encountered the Deep at the edge of the universe where he could go no further. [i][b]At the edge of the universe, I stared into the infinite deep. It stared back, and was pleased. I would become the herald of its victory, and bear witness for all creation. [/b] The Leviathan came to a halt before a wall of infinite void. It could go no further, as the navigation system had suffered a cataclysmic failure. The course that the conspirators had set crossed a space that simply didn't exist. I don't know how long we traveled. Years? Millennia? Time had ceased to have meaning as I wallowed in the despair of my exile. But this event shook me out of my stupor. [b]At the edge of the universe, we had found something. No—we had found a nothing.[/b] From the seat of my observation chamber, I stared into the perfect void. Only I, a god, could understand what I witnessed. It was a thing greater than myself. And if such a thing exists, then I, too, can become more.[/i] The Darkness/Deep is also called the formless one, just as the Leviathan of Fundament described the was as being between the Sky and the Deep, form and formless. There is also something Ulan Tan says about the void [i]Therefore, if Light connects across space and time, what is the Void? What role does the vacuum—the absence—play? [b]What stops the Darkness from entering into the places between the stars?[/b] The answer is simple: the Void is just another type of Light.[/i] The Darkness/Deep is not a part of our universe. It may exist deep in the abyss of the Overworld, but it's not a part of our universe. Lastly, the Taken are the closest we have to the Darkness right now, and they are unable to survive for long in our universe. As Ikora says [i]My Hidden tell me that the Taken shine with seething, negative light. As if the universe is curling up around them. As if they radiate some pathology that decays into our world as nothingness... [/i]

[quote]The stated [i]fact[/i] is that the Vex simulate for all possible outcomes.[/quote] If the Vex can simulate the unknown then they could simulate Guardians and The Taken, Oryx, etc. Neither we or the Taken would have been able to defeat the Vex in the Vault. We did so because we are unknown to them. We are beyond their ability to simulate and understand. How do you simulate something you have no data on, that you know nothing about? How would you draw a worm if you have never seen a worm? [quote]Their encounter with the Hive wasn’t their first encounter with paracausal powers. Did you read the Book of Sorrows from D1? You really should. They already knew about paracausal powers and the difficulties that are inherent to them. So they knew about Dark and Light before the Hive were even around.[/quote] The Vex already knew something about the Hive because of their encounter with the Ecumene. Here's what happened when the Vex first encountered the Hive [i]The Vex clattered around, constructing large problems. At first their constructions were deranged, because they didn’t understand the sword logic, which defined all rules in Oryx’s throne world. The geometry perplexed them.[/i] The unknown perplexed them, they could not understand the unknown rules leading to chaos. Here is an example of a Vex Mind trying to simulate an ascendant Hive. Even then Quria was still incapable of simulating a paracausal Oryx. [i]The closest Quria’s got to a simulation of Oryx is a best-guess bootstrap. It’s wrong — Quria’s sure of that, it’s Oryx minus the symbiote organism, minus the wings and morphs, minus the weapon, minus the power. No good for anything.[/i] And [i]Quria samples the Taox intelligence retrieved from the Ecumene gate. There are useful names. It feeds them to the simulation. [/i] [quote]So cite your sources for the initial claims. This seems to be reaching towards the origins. Note that in the Book it states that the Hive lose their power in the Vex realms. They obviously know a great deal about it they just trouble making it work on a computer. [/quote] That is not proof that the Vex knows about paracausal powers, you are clutching at straws. What the book actually says is [i]For a hundred years of local time the siblings fought the Vex. When the Vex came into the sword world, they were inevitably annihilated, but when the Hive went into the Vex world, they lost too much of their power to win.[/i] The Darkness has less power in our universe than it does in the place Toland calls the Overworld - where the Hive throne worlds exist. That is why they could beat the Vex easily in a throne world, they are naturally more powerful there. What is unknown is where the Vex world is, for all we know it's just the material universe. The same thing happened when Auryx encountered the Ecumene in the material universe. They were not powerful enough to beat them. [i]Never before have we despised our lords. Have they failed us? We the Hive have been driven back, world by world. “I am at my end,” Savathûn says. “I plot and plan. But I cannot gather enough bloodshed to feed my worm. And the harder I try, the hungrier it becomes.” “I slaughter and kill,” Xivu Arath says, “but the harder I fight, the more my worm demands. I too am at my end.” “The Ecumene war angels have killed me so many times,” Auryx says, “that I dare not go out into the universe, lest I need my might to protect myself. My worm chews at my soul in hunger.”[/i] It took the sacrifice of his sisters and Akka so that Oryx could learn the ability to Take from the Deep/Darkness for them to beat the Ecumene. Only then could they generate enough power in our universe. [quote]Not sure why you brought up the ISR, it’s just a copy of the Vex systems that’s isolated. And if the results of the use of it are any indication, not exactly a well understood system. So what are you getting at? [/quote] It's built to mimic the Vex Gateway system, that is all, and through the ISR they are able to see alternate timelines. This isn't them somehow taping into the Infinite Forest, they were isolated. I'm sure Golden Age scientists, who understood Light etc, would be able to determine whether the ISR was just a computer or not. So would the Warmind who was involved in its creation. The ISR device was part of Rasputin's contingency, it was to be used to indicate whether the Traveler was planning to leave. Something it could not do if it was a Vex simulation. It also predicted the arrival of the Darkness just before the collapse, something else a Vex simulation wouldn't be able to simulate. [i]Multiple distributed ISR assets report a TRANSIENT NEAR EXTRASOLAR EVENT. Event duration ZERO POINT THREE SECONDS. Event footprint includes sterile neutrino scattering and gravity waves. Omnibus analysis detects deep structure information content (nine sigma) and internal teleonomy. No hypothesis on event mechanism (FLAG ACAUSAL). Bootstrap simulation suggests event is DIRECTED and INIMICABLE (convergent q-Bayes/Monte Carlo probability approaches 1)[/i] [quote]How Osiris made his prophecies was never explained until Curse. Then recall he made these before D1, when it was stated in absolute terms paracausal entities couldn’t be simulated. It was also restated in D2 by Asher and the Vex. So it conflicts with all pre-Curse lore. [/quote] There is nothing in Curse that contradicts pre-Curse lore. The Vex still can't simulate paracausal beings and powers. The quote from Ikora even states that. When the Taken invaded the Vault, the Vex were powerless to stop them because they do not understand paracausal beings. They can not simulate them, they do not understand them. The source of Osiris's prophecies are still unknown. As Ikora says [i]Osiris has prophetic resources at his disposal other than the Forest. [/i] The lore has been consistent that the Vex are unable to simulate Light or Darkness, Guardians, ascendant Hive, Taken, etc. Notice how none of the simulations involve the Taken or ascendant Hive? They are all of species that are not paracausal or do not have direct paracausal powers. Even the Traveler that is visible in the past is just a static globe, the Vex know what it looks like, not what it can do. The infinite Forest does not answer any of the points I made such as the Exo Stranger being from an Earth where the Hive are not present on the Moon. Rasputin asking an Exo how to step through time and whether it's possible to step across time. The Black Garden existing in a separate reality outside of time. Dr Shim's theory on the origins of the Citadel being from the history of an alternate Venus. There is also something Vance says when the public event happens that a vex mind has turned its attention to our reality. A different reality means a different timeline.