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3/26/2023 6:19:23 AM
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Do the Gardener and Winnower truly exist?

In Shadowkeep, Bungie released the Unveiling lore book. It seems tells us the origin of the Light and Darkness, coming from primordial beings, the Gardener and Winnower, who’ve apparently always existed before even time, and exist outside the Universe. However, The Witch Queen then came along and revealed the big bad of the saga is the Witness. We as of yet have to learn of the Witness’ origins. In the past few years, they’ve been doubling down on Light and Darkness being neutral forces, it’s just that the Witness has mastery of the Darkness like no other and those that serve/worship it, much like the Traveler and Guardians as well as other Lightbearers. With this, do you think the Traveler and Witness are the Gardener and Winnower, or you think Unveiling is entirely metaphorical, and a way for the Witness to present its philosophy to us?
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  • I’ve always liked to think so. There is just something cool about the idea that the biggest bad we have so far (the witness) is but himself a servant of something greater.

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  • I forgot to mention, the Gardner spoke with Clovis. We have the transcript of it, came out in BL. https://www.ishtar-collective.net/records/clovis-brays-logbook-missing-pages Scroll down about half way, look for the third death vision.

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    • Unveiling isn’t metaphorical. The Winnower speaks against the philosophy of the Witness, showing they aren’t the same. Plus the explanation of the Vex origin gives it credence as being literal. The only allegorical part of it is the physicality of the Garden and the occupants. The issue is we’ve operated under the assumption that the Gardner and Winnower are separate. Think about what the Witness said to the Traveler before going through the portal. About being a perpetrator and victim. Wouldn’t the Winnower be the perp? The Gardner the victim? Then there is how Unveiling is actually written. First person, you don’t quote your speech. Unless it’s a flash back. The conversations between the Gardner and Winnower are a flashback. Yet the Winnower’s lines aren’t quoted. In a first person format, you only do that when it’s you thinking. So the Winnower’s dialogue should be internal thoughts.

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      • The Witness’ existence doesn’t at all disprove the Winnower’s existence. Look at the statues of the veiled woman surrounding the Pyramids and their architecture. That’s a depiction of the Winnower. And something had to create the Traveler, therefore the Gardener also exists. Something also had to create the force that we call Light and the force that we call Dark. Hence the Gardener and the Winnower. These things don’t just come from nothing.

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        • I think the gardener and widower are personifications of the light and the dark but aren’t actual beings in the universe. The witness is not the darkness just has a level of mastery over it. Same could be said of the traveler who is just a medium for the light to act.

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          • [quote]In Shadowkeep, Bungie released the Unveiling lore book. It seems tells us the origin of the Light and Darkness, coming from primordial beings, the Gardener and Winnower, who’ve apparently always existed before even time, and exist outside the Universe. However, The Witch Queen then came along and revealed the big bad of the saga is the Witness. We as of yet have to learn of the Witness’ origins. In the past few years, they’ve been doubling down on Light and Darkness being neutral forces, it’s just that the Witness has mastery of the Darkness like no other and those that serve/worship it, much like the Traveler and Guardians as well as other Lightbearers. With this, do you think the Traveler and Witness are the Gardener and Winnower, or you think Unveiling is entirely metaphorical, and a way for the Witness to present its philosophy to us?[/quote] The gardener and Winnower are metaphors for the primordial beings, they are put in ways we can “understand” just how the Flower Game is a metaphor

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            • No, they are characters in a videogame, they dont actually exist. Hope this helps 👍

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              • Remember the Witness is the one who gave us the unveiling book. A lot of people missed that part. So the talk about the gardener and winnower are is from a 3rd party perspective not from the Winnower or Gardener

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                • i think of them as more like ideology's more then character's even though its probably wrong

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                • Modifié par bigtimejamez : 3/30/2023 12:52:23 AM
                  I believe the intent is that the gardener and the winnower are mostly metaphorical, but represent some sort of primordial beings that represent the light and the dark in its purest form, to the point that they’re more of a concept than an actual being. Similar to Gaia in Greek mythology, or maybe more comparably the idea of “Mother Earth.” I think the traveler and the witness are more similar to angels serving their masters, the light and the dark, or even similar to us, the guardians, serving them.

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                  • Modifié par LostNDestiny : 3/28/2023 6:35:29 AM
                    It's all told to us in the lightfall campain, weren't you paying attention ? Basically, The Witness is trying to hijack the flower game, before it was light vs dark, but an entity came from an unknown dimension and attacked the Winnower , forcing it to hide, allowing that entity to assume control of the darknes, but what the entity came here for was not darkness, it was just a means to an end, there is a secret the Gardner hides, that another, more powerful force lies beyond a portal it protects, and only the Winnower , aka The Veil , can unlock said portal That's why the witness said no more life(traveler) no more death(winnower) The Witness Corrupted both the light and dark to play a different game According to what Nimbus said anyway

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