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Edited by WiggletonBandit: 7/18/2018 10:06:37 PM
62

Why Raiding in D2 is so divisive.

Given the recent announcement that some of the Solstice Armor, and non-raid catalysts (Telesto and Sleeper) are going to require prestige raid completions I wanted to offer my own explanation as to why the thought of raiding in D2 is such a turn off to many, even for many of us who were avid raiders in D1. Just my thoughts below, but interested in why everyone else enjoys or doesn't enjoy raiding in D2 in its current state. From my observations whether or not you enjoy raiding in D2 seems to come down to two main factors. 1) Do you enjoy the heavier emphasis on mechanics over D1 raids including the new death mechanics such as revive tokens and wipe timer? 2) Do you have a regular group you play with or do you rely on LFG? Because of the heavier emphasis on mechanics and death penalties there aren't as many "easy" roles in D2 raids compared to D1 raids. In D1 raids you could bring in newer or less experienced players and assign them some easier tasks such as add control in most encounters, and on normal mode it was usually OK if they died once or twice without it being too much of a problem. This kept a relatively low barrier to entry for new players and offered more experienced players an opportunity to teach new players without either of them feeling like they were dragging the team down, or being dragged down respectively. D2 normal mode raids are much less forgiving since most encounters require players to have a full understanding of the complete mechanics, and because if they die (which is bound to happen to new players) it often means the entire team needs to wipe and do it again. The friendly Learn-As-You-Go process of D1 raids is gone. Bringing along lesser skilled players, or even experienced players whom you've just met and haven't developed that intuitive shorthand communication you get with a regular group means that you need to be prepared for significantly more wipes than D1 raids. The effect of these changes has manifested in a few noticeable ways. 1) Having a regular raid team is much more of a prerequisite for being successful in D2 raids compared to D1 raids. There's no substitute for developing consistent strategies and shorthand communication, and though this was true in D1 raids as well, flawless communication and coordination wasn't as much of a prerequisite for most encounters due to more forgiving mechanics and lack of wipe-on-death penalties. 2) We've seen increasingly rigid experience requirements for LFG participation even for normal difficulty raids. For the aforementioned reasons bringing along less experienced players is now almost guaranteed to add significant time and frustration to your runs, so you can't really blame players for not wanting to go through that tedious and repetitive learning process with new players every time they raid. So who can blame them? 3) Solo players who were once comfortable with using LFG to find raid groups have been turned off by the more rigid systems, greater emphasis on experience, communication, and steeper LFG requirements. Again, who can blame them since no one likes feeling like they're holding the rest of the team back, or being berated by more experienced players who are frustrated at having to wipe every time someone makes a small mistake. TL;DR - Because D2 raids have more rigid encounter mechanics coupled with wipe-on-death mechanics it makes learning raids a more tedious process than D1, and makes taking newer or less experienced players through raids more difficult and less enjoyable for all. Because if this we're seeing steeper LFG experience requirements than D1, fewer experienced players willing to help new players, and fewer average players interested in raiding in general.

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  • Edited by Galactic Zones: 7/20/2018 9:30:39 AM
    The issue is that Bungie listens too much to streamers and top-tier hardcore players. They demand ever more challenging content and Bungie attempts to placate them by introducing ever more over-elaborate ludicrous mechanics in the raids. Jumping through hoops like a dog at Crufts, throwing orbs around, sneaking around a garden holding pollen (WTF?), the revive tokens etc. All of these nonsense mechanics have taken the game in the wrong direction. In trying to appease the streamers and elitists, Bungie has forgotten what actually makes the game they designed fun. They need to get back to basics. Look at what they did in Destiny 1. Sure the raids weren't perfect but there was a better balance between gunfights and puzzles. By comparison the D2 raids are a complete mess.

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    • I don’t raid. Period. Much better things to do.

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    • Edited by Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 7/22/2018 12:09:50 PM
      Unfortunately they’ve made it pretty clear that they want just finding people to play with to be “part of the challenge.” Which is absurd, in my opinion. A regular group can knock a Destiny raid out in less than an hour. With a group of strangers it often takes 3 hours or even more, especially with guided games. I don’t think they should get rid of raids. I just think they should provide some kind of matchmaking based alternative that is less complex and less arduous. Something where the “challenge” isn’t other people. I don’t know of any adults that have at least 5 good friends that all share the same interests and that play the same game together, lol. The raid participation, and especially completion numbers, speak for themselves. Rather than make the game more open and accessible for people, they just keep trying to give people reasons to play their raids. I wonder if it has ever occurred to them that they aren’t as popular as they want them to be and that if given the opportunity, many players would earn unique gear in other ways if possible.

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    • [quote]1) Do you enjoy the heavier emphasis on mechanics over D1 raids[/quote] This. I liked the more emphasis on enemy battles and simpler mechanics in the D1 Year 1 raids. I'm simply not interested in learning & playing raids with rigid & complicated mechanics. I guess this has caused me to become more of a solo player as time goes on.

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    • Year one wasn’t any better. Your memory fails you. Before Crota, VOG was filled with rage quitting babies that had zero patience for newbie failures. Crota everyone required you to have Ghally or else you could piss off. Oryx, same story as VOG.

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    • The reason they made these changes to d2 was to save their game to not loose their hardcore audience. I think they need to be careful with how hard they swing the pendulum. Ironically they will loose players no matter what they do. I feel like we are at a point were we are dangerously near the breaking point for a lot players who dont play the game 24/7 Like streamers and youtubers can. If they dont make some serious mm changes. They will have a hard time holding on to the average joe player in d2. On a side note i really wonder how healthy the pc player population is. I play on pc and it feels pretty empty. Crucible mm takes ages especially after 6v6 change. I may be wrong , but i think consoles are keeping this game alive. It seems like thats were the majority of players play.

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    • I've gotten flak for calling out the high mechanic driven new raids, but that's really what the problem is. I know the hardcore raiders love the extra challenge, but for the average Joe it just made easing into raids something that can't happen without getting lucky and finding a really open group. I also remember when it was exciting just to clear the Templar or make it through the Abyss. You still had a chance at an elemental primary and a piece of armor that would make you better for the next go around. It was common to only make it part way, but everyone was happy anyways! Everyone likes what they like, some like it better now. But i miss the old-style raid setup.

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    • Edited by Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 7/21/2018 1:51:30 PM
      Overall it just makes the game so rigid. Unnecessarily restricting feeling to a large number of players. It’s like they are trying to find ways to get people to play the raids rather than actually trying to give a large number of players what they want. Which would be freedom and alternatives. Not everyone has a regular group. Not everyone wants to punish themselves with artificially difficult missions and replaying the same ones with zero variance outside of arbitrary restrictions. In fact I don’t think that most people want those things. I had a group in D1 but they all left by Taken King or shortly after that because of things like this. The participation and completion numbers for raids and even other activities speak for themselves. It seems they would rather try to force people to play exactly how they want than to give people options and let people have fun in their own way. This is why I waited to get D2, on sale, until after the first two add-ons dropped and why I’ve already almost hit my stopping point for now. A run of all the soloable content doesn’t take long. Then it’s just some milestones weekly. Still not sure I actually want Forsaken until next year for the same reason. They come up with all this cool stuff but then they give many people reasons not to play it because they make it feel like a chore rather than something fun. It’s the same Bungie shooting themselves in the foot as with D1. They have so much to work with here and there is an enormous amount of potential and they squander it in this impractical gameplay model that allows most people to get only but so far and then it turns into s completely different experience for the few and best things, and then they seem to prioritize the low number of players that actually complete those things. I’m not surprised I guess, just still disappointed. I will continue to have the most divisive love/hate relationship with this series, but they will continue to not get full price on release day from me because of this. I’ll continue to wait for there to be enough “first time” unique content in a bundle that I can go through and then sit behind the wall of rigid restrictions, inconsistency, and pseudo difficulty that ensues when I’m done with it.

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    • I think rewards and leveling for solo players (as i am ) should be more interesting as well. High power gear as of today is highest in raids 400 to 405 . i think, as a solo player we should get a chance by obtaining those power levels in EP . as i play alone i never do raids or lairs. I think bungie needs to think about EP on mutiple worlds and different variations. So that we, the ones that are solo have more chance at obtaining higher power gear and playing alone can be tuff sometimes. (Balance ..ok)

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    • 10
      The issue with raid, prestige and how they are created is that Bungie is using teams like REDEEM as the marker for creating difficulty. They are trying to make the raid as hard as possible for a team of that quality. REDEEM is not who they should be using as a barometer. Because all of the changes they have made have pushed people away opposed to getting them to raid. Nobody wants to kick their less skilled friend but you almost have to the way the raid is developed. The revive token system is by far the worst. Just let us clutch. They need find a mix of puzzles/ad clear and boss fights that are fun and worthy of doing. I can see why nobody wants to do Leviathan, its not that good of a raid. Kill some dogs, run a guanlet and go back in forth in the pools is not the same as killing Gologorth, the sister and the Warpriest. Spire is just a ton of mechanics and a boring shield drop dps faze. The prestige mechanics are literal rip off what Datto raid challenges were. Hey Bungie I don't want to play like Datto. How about hard raid has no res like always and new harder mechanics. These new changes were made literally for streamers. Not the community overall. I don't think the raid needs to be easier it just needs to be fun and have worth rewards. Until that happens(and it hasn't at all in D2) the raid community is going to be divided.

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      • [quote]1) Do you enjoy the heavier emphasis on mechanics over D1 raids including the new death mechanics such as revive tokens and wipe timer?[/quote] I -blam!-ing hate it. With a passion.

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      • Basically, look at the difference between the raids and Escalation Protocol: Raids, due to their mechanics, are unforgiving when mistakes are made, requiring perfect execution every step of the way, and when players just can't get on the same page or play their roles as well, it leads to frustration and hours of wasted time. You can rarely ever relax in the raids, as you always need to be paying attention to what's going on, and coordinating with your team. EP has a few very basic mechanics over the entire 7 wave experience. You can die, A LOT, and still have a great chance at recovering, and winning. Mostly, it's just about sitting back, and having fun blowing the hell out of a ton of enemies. Almost every raid group I've ever joined, when there are problems, has become toxic and unenjoyable. However, every EP group I've made or joined, nobody really seems to give a crap what happens. I've made more friends and had way more fun in every EP I've done, than I have in any raid I've done.

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        • Its a philosophical problem. Bungie needs to realize that you can't make content that will push the "one-percent" to their limits....and still have the content be accessible. And all the changes did was take a piece of content that already had a HIGH barrier to entry because of the need to be end-game...and put together a 6-man FT without MMing..... ...and just made them even higher. Because---as you said----the wipe mechanics require all 6 people to survive. Will wipe the entire team if someone with a token can't get to the down player in time...and along with the mechanics makes it extremely difficulty to "carry" or "hide' a weaker player. So you have now torpedoed people's willingness to gamble on a low experience player.....or to try to teach a new player the raid. So the wall to entry got topped with razor wire.

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          • Because D2 started out participation trophy style. Now they are going back to D1 style. No one in D1 complained about it.

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          • So here are my issues with D2 raiding as a LFG raider. 1) Way too many raid wipe mechanics in normal. Its normal mode, which is supposed to be the raid that is a barrier of entry for those looking to get into raiding and those to learn the basic mechanics of the raid. A soft enrage and maybe a raid wipe mechanic is fine. With too many raid wipe mechanics you bring about frustration in a setting that should be about learning. There are other ways to punish mistakes, have that player die, damage down debuff, take more damage from sources, etc. 2) Most of the action is reserved to add control rather than on the boss interactions. Bosses do very little in the grand scheme of things. 3) Its not impossible, just frustrating to LFG. Again I have been an LFG raider and day one cleared most of the raids including EoW Prestige. Its patience and knowing when some one is too toxic you need to remove them. 4) Better rewards were needed. There are too few good items in the raids to warrent running. The catalysts were necessary/ 5) These raids require specific strategies which isn't fun. A healthy raid experience should have multiple different ways to complete an encounter or different ways to deal with them. 6) No changes in Prestige. This is where all the raid wipe mechanics, forced communication, and demanding skill should be reserved to. Prestige should be where we form statics for, and login in every week to try and clear as the pen-ultimate activity without crippling our characters but instead have difficult enemies and prestige exclusive mechanics.

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            • I have a clan of 90 people..... 3 were playing yesterday. F#cking 3! Part of the issue is people are disgruntled with the game in general, and those you rely on to raid with are no longer around. I'm sure I'm not the only person in that boat of being the only person on their friends list still playing. Leviathan didn't have a true boss fight until Calus, which annoyed people. Argos felt like an actual boss fight, but Leviathan was literally just the movie Saw meeting a space magic game show. Which obviously turned people off BUT, 1 thing to note as to why Bungie made these changes... players were solo'ing all aspects of the raid. Instead of relying on teammates, players would just solo portions of the raid and they made so many damn mechanics to prevent that (which it didn't). So part of the reason we see so many mechanics, was to stop some of those players. In the end, it pissed off the middle of the road raiders.

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              • Personally, I've stopped raiding for 3 main reasons: 1) No good rewards. 2) I don't care about the Cabal, or the lore behind the raid. 3) Too much of a time investment. Might try putting a group together to run Leviathan, EoW and SoS for SoH...but if just getting the team together proves too much of an ordeal, there isn't much point.

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                • Raiding flat-out sucks in D2. There’s nothing worth my time there as far as rewards. The best feature about D1 has been neutered. I was an avid weekly raider in D1, and I haven’t even touched the 2 mini raids. Did leviathan a good 10 times total. Moniked with the formula and suckified it.

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                  • Simple solution. Normal/heroic/prestige raid levels. Prestige for the top tier raiders with heavy mechanics and the wipe feature. Take the guided games idea use it to matchmake guardians for the normal raids. Guardians learn the raids preparing them for heroic raids with slighlty heavier mechanics. Dont make things easy. Still add a challenge to the normal raids but give new players a chance to test the waters and wait for it...LEARN. It may actually bring the community together a bit who knows. 😌

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                  • I have a clan of around 20. No one is ever on when I get on (which is more and more rare I even get on). We used to raid all the time in D1. I would sherpa on D1 and spent thousands of hours on D1. D2 drove the players away including my clan. That's the problem. I don't feel like having to LFG and put myself through that for what rewards?? It's not like there is a Vex or Vision to chase. It's all garbage rewards anyway aside from maybe the catalysts. I don't understand why anyone bothers to prestige raid in this game. I have 0 desire to and haven't even touched Spire of Stars and have no desire to. Never thought I would say any of the things I just said during the D1 days.

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                    • Luckily, I'm in a good Clan. There's almost always a Levi, Nightfall, Heroics, etc group forming at any given time and people are willing to usher in new arrivals and generally make people feel welcome. I've done Calus a handful of times and EoW once since starting with this franchise on Warmind release. Having said all this, I'm not really into raiding in this game. The wipe mechanics are too unforgiving, the mechanics make me feel like I'm playing Tombraider from 1997, and the rewards are lack luster. Trying to get around on the Leviathan is not enjoyable in the slightest (again I am reminded of Tombraider). This is a "shooter" game but the raids I have done aren't really designed as a "shooter" (can't figure that one out to save my life). Jumping puzzles suck. Few people enjoy them. Nothing in raiding so far makes me want to venture into SoS to see what it has to offer. Also, I have read the patch notes and watched the video from Bungie regarding the prestige modes for the second 2 raids. Forcing players to play your way and not theirs isn't fun for the majority of players (who you should be catering to). The guy that thought up that gem, and the ones that supported it, weren't really thinking ahead it seems. As a game developer, I don't understand why you don't look at other games out there to see what does/doesn't work in their game before trying to implement it into yours. You can't make everyone happy in a game, but you should be able to make a large majority happy, which should be the focus. The top 1% are rarely happy because there's "no challenge", but this shouldn't be the focus. The definition of "game" is "fun". If your game isn't appealing because it isn't "fun" then you have failed.

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                      • Edited by Swiftlock: 7/19/2018 6:23:43 PM
                        Because the actual feeling of overcoming a challenge with other people feels good, but... The underwhelming endgame loot, a lack of great boss encounters, the flawed Guided Games, having to go to an external website to find a group, the general hostility of many players towards inexperienced raiders, and just the overall experience of actually getting a competent raid group together all suck.

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                        • 1)Nope I personally do not like the cutesy puzzles and mechanics because its now spreading to everything in the game. 2)Play with a regular group but just can't be bothered to get excited about it. D2 needs to ditch revive tokens on Normal raids. Let the new players in and let them learn. I am apprehensive about taking in newer low skilled players because I know its going to turn what should be a 40 minute raid into a 5 hour ordeal. Bungie wants us all to find groups of friends but regularly removes the ways I met a lot of my clan in D1. No more striking non stop with the same people. One and done. How are we supposed to meet people that way?

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                        • i think they broke what they made in TTK , it was much better in almost every aspect in D1 , specially the RAID and its boss fights, all of them had their unique mechanism that was both FUN and alterable, you could do things differently , i.e use higher light level as advantage and burn golgroth in a different way etc... so 1) HELL NO , i think TTK encounters were well scripted and well balanced and this is just plain bad. 2) i used lfg, as a mute player, and it was fine ! maybe its hard to believe but in D1 when raid groups on lfg noticed you're mute but you know the tactics they were fine ! now on D2 nobodys willing to put up with a mute player, and the fights are much more complicated than they should be, hence the lack of fun when you play them and bosses are like puppets, they dont matter... the mechanics are so many and the rules are so unforgiving that its not as fun as when you were detonating orbs on oryx and one player missed something... or when a jumper on the sisters encounter on TTK fell down... it was fun as hell back then :/ but now its so unforgiving that i as a player dont enjoy them...

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                        • I tried to raid in D2 at first but to me personaly the raid is a boring experience and to top that off there is nothing i want from the raid. Its not like D1's raid weapons or anything. Bungo thinks locking catalysts behind raid will bring back folks. The day they add fatebringer type weapons, maybe primary elemetals or ornaments like D1 Y3 i would consider attempting raids in D2. The raid is also way too mechanical in D2. To those who enjoy im glad for you but its not what i like or care to spend time doing.

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                          • The mechanics and wipe timer HAVE CREATED THE CRAPPY RAIDING ENVIRONMENT THAT D2 HAS TODAY. Do away with the wipe time and 1/2 this problem goes away IMMEDIATELY.

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