The Dreaming City was only compromised because the Techeuns attempted to save Mara as the wave from Oryx’s weapon hit, delaying their emergency teleports and allowing the wave to follow them through and taking them in the process. This gave him three pairs of eyes inside, through which he was able to invade and then gain access to Riven. It was an unexpected outcome, as shown in the Dreaming City armour where Mara was expecting to find a refuge in her artificial Ascendant Realm, not a poisoned well. But Hermann wouldn’t know that. Edit: She’s also not asking the Oracle Engine about her death. She’s asking about the Hive, the Oracle Engine is using the four it shows her to give her a comparison with the Hive siblings. It’s how Mara knew about Savathûn before launching her gambit to halt Oryx’s fleet and give the Guardians time to defeat him.

The Dreaming City was vulnerable in those moments Mara used the Oracle. She was warned by her Techeuns NOT to use it. And it is clear, by the lore AND HER OWN words... despite what she told her Techeuns, her motivations had nothing to do with biding time. Just read it. Selfish, worried about her own mortality. How many people do you need in game validating it. Uldren Zavala Cayde Lavinia Orin Germaine Eido They all say the same things about Mara Sov. [i]"Edit: She’s also not asking the Oracle Engine about her death. She’s asking about the Hive, the Oracle Engine is using the four it shows her to give her a comparison with the Hive siblings".[/i] You can't just make up stuff when the citation is literally quoted above, [b][i]"Ten times and once more Mara asked the Oracle Engine to show her the sword that was death and the way it would appear".[/i][/b] When Ikora says this, [i]"Mara Sov’s hagiography and self-indictment, the Marasenna, warns the reader to remember that it is narrated in the first person, even and especially when it pretends to be objective".[/i] It means it's "Worse". Mara Sov hides in plain sight with her self-indictments, and in doing so gives credibility to an objective appraisal of those misdeeds she confesses to... Ikora is saying, It's [b]WORSE[/b] than she's admitting to. Edit: The "Four" disciples of the Gardener... you should read Architects's post... they clued in on it, asked me how many disciples the Gardener has. It's based on Revelation 6... one of the most famous chapters in the book of Revelations. The 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse. Of which Mara Sov is one...

[quote]Edit: The "Four" disciples of the Gardener... you should read Architects's post... they clued in on it, asked me how many disciples the Gardener has. It's based on Revelation 6... one of the most famous chapters in the book of Revelations. The 4 Horseman of the Apocalypse. Of which Mara Sov is one...[/quote] I’m not going to address theories using things like the Book of Revelations completely unprompted, because there’s no basis for that idea. If you expect me to, create a greater link between the Destiny and that book. [quote][i]"Edit: She’s also not asking the Oracle Engine about her death. She’s asking about the Hive, the Oracle Engine is using the four it shows her to give her a comparison with the Hive siblings".[/i] You can't just make up stuff when the citation is literally quoted above, [b][i]"Ten times and once more Mara asked the Oracle Engine to show her the sword that was death and the way it would appear".[/i][/b][/quote] Hmm, yeah how do I know what she was actually asking here? [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-i]Tyrannocide I[/url] [quote]I dreamt of the self-honing blade that has cut itself so fine, it pierces the world and thus becomes of the world. It is self-honing because it constantly whets itself against itself. I dreamt of Death bearing this blade, or of something so closely allied with Death as to become its synonym, so that to separate them would require a knife sharper than sharpness. Death raised up that blade and said “I cut all and all I cut. Aiat.” Then Death cut the bomb, and the bomb was broken and could not fire. I was in the bomb. I knew that Death was the cut-verb, and it’s only verb was to cut. ————————— I dreamt that the Sword that was Death and Rule sought out complexity and cut it to reveal the simplicity within. I knew that soon we would be cut for we were complex and full of secrets. I knew that it was coming. I knew that the stroke would fall and that I had to stop it.[/quote] [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-ii]Tyrannocide II[/url] [quote]Ten times and once more Mara asked the Oracle Engine to show her the sword that was death and the way it would appear. Ten times and once more the Oracle Engine showed Mara an image of her family.[/quote] [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-iv]Tyrannocide IV[/url] [quote]You cannot defeat a thing that is synonymous with death except on its own territory. You cannot fear and flee from death. You must face it. Death is a sword, and a sword is like a crossing-point, like a bridge-and a bridge may be walked two ways. The plan exists in her mind alone, although beloved Eris has by necessity learned most of it. The Techeuns do not know the whole plan, though they will position the Harbingers upon the threshold. Even sweat capable Petra does not know the hold plan. So many she will leave behind. Uldren knows nothing of the whole plan. ————————— Secrets are her virtue and the virtue of her nemesis. The being whose existence she deduced from the analogy-of-family the Oracle Engine showed her. Mara will begin the end of that Queen’s brother today. She knows what that means for the fate of her own. An eye for an eye. She must now think of the fate of the entire cosmos[/quote] Death, or the thing synonymous with Death, sounds an awful lot like Oryx, does it not? Down to the fact that it even ends Mara. Immediately after that it then clarifies ‘the sword that was Death and Rule’. There is more than one sword of death, hence why when Mara asks the Oracle Engine she is greeted by a vision that shows her four figures, three of which correspond to the three Hive siblings. Sjur is Xivu, Uldren is Oryx, Mara is Savathûn. Who Osana might represent is the most interesting, my thought process has always been Taox, given her place as a sort of mother figure to them. Though that is something that doesn’t amount to much, given neither Taox or the OXTA play a role in Mara’s plan. [quote]How many people do you need in game validating it. Uldren Zavala Cayde Lavinia Orin Germaine Eido[/quote] I still need to see those pieces of dialogue between Lavinia-Orin and Drifter-Eido to weigh in on those, but considering Eido has actively worked with Mara in a cooperative fashion and Drifter has idle dialogue stating- [quote]”Mara Sov finally picked a side, huh? You know what… I’ll take it. She hits hard.” [/quote] -so he does at least acknowledge she’s an ally. So let’s talk about the first three. The Zavala quote you continuously refer to predates Forsaken. Since that point, he retracted his refusal to aid the Reef once the Curse fell on the Dreaming City, he has openly cooperated with the Awoken and invited Mara Sov into the Coalition as one of the leading figures in the fight against the Witness. He especially trusted her to allow us into the Pale Heart, trust that was rewarded when we successfully made our way inside after which Mara Sov successfully led reinforcements through to aid in the final battle. Uldren was being manipulated by Riven, but everything he did was in the belief that she was Mara and that the Awoken were keeping her prisoner in the Dreaming City to usurp her. The issue with Cayde is the only thing we have to go off there is a period of time where the Tower and the Reef were not very friendly. Mara was presumed dead months after open travel began and he died right before she re-emerged. And they don’t have any interactions in The Final Shape, that I recall at least. [quote]The Dreaming City was vulnerable in those moments Mara used the Oracle. She was warned by her Techeuns NOT to use it.[/quote] I’d also be curious to see this quote as well, as I haven’t found anything with such a warning, particularly given the lack of protest between Tyrannocide I and II.

[i]"Hmm, yeah how do I know what she was actually asking here"?[/i] Because she asked it ten times and it says it, If you're trying to obfuscate based on poetics that's nonsense and you know it. [i][b]"asked the Oracle Engine to show her the sword that was death and the way it would appear"[/b][/i] [i]"Ten times and once more the Oracle Engine showed Mara an image of her family".[/i] This has always been your crutch... if it's not literally explicit, you think that justifies your antics... it doesn't. You thought you were sly, that I cherry picked... I didn't let's go through it, [url=https://www.destinypedia.com/Lore:The_Awoken_of_the_Reef#Tyrannocide_I]Tryannocide I[/url] [i]"Here is where the beginning began, at that moment when Mara bolted awake from the dream".[/i] That's her recollection of when she was reborn. We she became the Gardeners disciple. There's overlap in Marasenna confirming it. She's talking about the Knife... not the Hive. This, [url=https://www.destinypedia.com/Lore:Marasenna#Cosmogyre_IV]Cosmogyre IV[/url] [i]"Suddenly, as if the void around her has just spontaneously Big Banged, she sees light. A point of pure white shines in the cosmic distance. Not just visible luminance—her suit decomposes the spectrum—but light in the radio bands, in microwave, keening ultraviolet, a spike of gamma, a total and all-embracing radiation. It sings. It chatters. It speaks in a voice older than suns. She feels that she could Fourier the voice for a century and never decompose it into its parts. It is awesome and appalling and piercingly true. Mara understands how those who die in radiation accidents must feel: A single flash of invisible power sears away all possible futures except one. She feels her soul itself has been ionized, blasted into a higher energy state. The light pierces the darkness. Not like the sunrise, not like a wall or a flood, but a single crepuscular ray—a finger of radiance that reaches out through deepest night to touch her. It illuminates Mara, Uldwyn, and Yang Liwei. It is not quite enough. It cannot vanquish the shadow. Thus Mara finds herself drifting on the edge of the Light and the Darkness, on the dusk-and-dawn gradient between the two. [u]She feels a contest. A battle fought, an equilibrium reached: not a truce, but an infinite limit, like an equation dividing by zero, a collision of two violent eternities.[/u] Mara queries Yang Liwei for telemetry and her sensorium fills with the terrified scream of gravitational instruments. She howls too, a feral sound, ecstatic and lost: a wolf baying at the stars. She knows what's happening. Too much power has gathered here. The universe is appalled by the paradox. Nothing that has glimpsed this collision of infinitudes can be allowed to escape. The cosmos must censor its embarrassment. It must sequester the anomaly. The slope of warped space-time around them has become too steep, and now every path outward or forward bends back to the center where Light and Dark collide. The definition of "future" has become synonymous with the definition of "inward." This is why it's called an event horizon: For an object within the horizon, the path of all future things that can be done or seen leads inevitably down to the center. All events lead inward".[/i] This is what she was talking about, [url=https://www.destinypedia.com/Lore:Marasenna#Palingenesis_II]Palingenesis II[/url] [i]"Here in this time without time, pocketed by the ever-scattering cosm, touched as an assassin touches the gun in the secret fold. There is an eon within and I am going without. This is where we belong, interstitial, in that space between. This is where truth collapses supercritical. There is a war, and its name is existence. There are two ways to fight—one is the sword, and one is the bomb. By the sword, I mean the way to fight that is tempered and solid. The way that is made from old things and that triumphs by the reduction to simplicity. This way is known to those who study the cosmos. Take any part of it at any time, and you will see an edge and say, "This is a weapon." By the bomb, I mean that way of being that is complex and schematic and that must attain a criticality to attack. The way that is made from new things and that triumphs by the arrangement of intricacy. This way is known to those who study themselves. Take any component of the bomb in isolation, and you will say, "What is this? I cannot understand its purpose." Yet in it is the possibility of a fire. Numberless are the spaces that surround the universe. Subordinate and superordinate are their relationships to the intrinsic world-that-is-only-itself. We pass now through analogy space that will reify what was once subject into object. That power I held, which was agonist to a mother's rapprochement, will be realized and reified. First is the awareness of my vector, which all who follow me held in their hearts. Second is the desire to hear my speech, which all who follow me curled in their ears. Third is the existence-at-the-fault, which is the inner tension that all who follow me still sense. We are risen from man and fallen from heaven. We are made again in the fall. What was once us will not ever again be us. I am the uncrowned ever-Queen and my only diadem will be the event horizon of the universe, which is my dominion. By falling, I will rise. There are an uncountable number of ways to be between zero and two".[/i] What you quoted in Revanche I... is referencing this.

[quote][i]"Hmm, yeah how do I know what she was actually asking here"?[/i] Because she asked it ten times and it says it, If you're trying to obfuscate based on poetics that's nonsense and you know it. [i][b]"asked the Oracle Engine to show her the sword that was death and the way it would appear"[/b][/i] [i]"Ten times and once more the Oracle Engine showed Mara an image of her family".[/i] This has always been your crutch... if it's not literally explicit, you think that justifies your antics... it doesn't. You thought you were sly, that I cherry picked... I didn't let's go through it,[/quote] No refutation of the previous and later entries that show this isn’t what she meant, or what she was shown? If anything, you’re the one taking it explicitly. -The Sword that was Death- -> ‘Oh she’s asking about death’ She’s asking about Oryx, and instead being giving a vision of the Osmium Dynasty. [quote][url=https://www.destinypedia.com/Lore:The_Awoken_of_the_Reef#Tyrannocide_I]Tryannocide I[/url] [i]"Here is where the beginning began, at that moment when Mara bolted awake from the dream".[/i] That's her recollection of when she was reborn. We she became the Gardeners disciple.[/quote] Now you actually are cherrypicking. What’s the next line Hermann? [quote]Her circle of Techeuns lay with her in the misty wintercold chamber, and they came back groggily, their augments stuttering with resync.[/quote] The Techeuns are only established when Mara Sov begins laying out order in the Reef after they leave the Distributary. This has nothing to do with her crossing the threshold and becoming Awoken, nor the clash of Light and Dark that allowed it to happen. Edit: The hint about what beginning this refers to is in the name of the entry. Tyrannocide I. Which is either a play on or misspelling of Tyrannicide, the act of killing a tyrant.

I'm not, and you're not letting me finish. You cherry picked, you quoted Revanche I out of context, she wasn't talking to the oracle or about the Hive there... but you presented it as it was. If you want to have a faithful debate, let's do that... But, after a 2-year time out, can't help yourself. Stop mischaracterizing. That lore was not Mara talking to the Oracle or about the Hive. Or was Mara talking about the Hive in Paligenesis too? You quote without providing the actual context to subsidize your assumptions. And I know you know you're doing it. You've read an obsessed over everything I've ever written. You should know I answered all of this already. I was going to humor you, we'll recap everything... if you want to give me the time to do it. Stop linking Ishtar, you know it sucks... because it breaks everything up. Stop trying to manipulate by quoting things out of context to validate your assumptions.

[quote]I'm not, and you're not letting me finish.[/quote] You hit post, I’m not stopping you from typing. [quote]You cherry picked, you quoted Revanche I out of context, she wasn't talking to the oracle or about the Hive there... but you presented it as it was.[/quote] I never quoted Revanche I in this thread, only Tyrannocide entries that explicitly speak about a dream Mara had that causes her to question the Oracle Engine. [quote]Stop mischaracterizing.[/quote] You just blatantly lied about my quoting lore I never did and are now roping in two unrelated entries that also speak about Death. Those have nothing to do with Mara’s question to the Oracle Engine. Her dream does, hence why I quoted it to show the Death she asks the Oracle Engine about is a person, not the concept.

Yeah, but you could obviously see that I had not covered everything and it was being edited as I answered you. AND, THIS IS WHAT YOU DO. Like a signature tactic. I don't forget. It's over. I gave you a chance. I would have put the effort in, not now. I gave you a chance. Because I don't know what you're going to say, I look it all up... I grab the quotes and links. It can take a minute. You know exactly what you're doing. 😇👍💠 You're wrong. You're lying because you know better. You knew that lore wasn't an effective counter, but you posted it anyways.

[quote]Yeah, but you could obviously see that I had not covered everything and it was being edited as I answered you. AND, THIS IS WHAT YOU DO. Like a signature tactic. I don't forget. It's over. I gave you a chance. I would have put the effort in, not now. I gave you a chance. Because I don't know what you're going to say, I look it all up... I grab the quotes and links. It can take a minute. You know exactly what you're doing. 😇👍💠[/quote] Just finish the post first, then post it. I’m not going to assume you have edits to make to the original. Thats a you problem, not a me problem. I am not a psychic. This is not a tactic. It is me attempting to respond in a timely manner when I am able. Edit: You also didn’t address your lying.

No, it's a you problem. You were just going to lose anyways, but I thought... might be good for a recap. You can just wait 6 months now. 😇👍💠 I won't need to say anything. I'm more confident now than I've ever been. It was Architect too, he turned on the final lightbulb... Led me back to the hidden dossier. And her interactions with Lavinia... she has known, Ikora... that Mara was connected to the invasion by the Cabal... clearly. Mara explicitly said NOT to help us. Confirmed by Uldren in the Forsaken Prince.

In 6 months your theory won’t have come to pass and you’ll still be arguing that the lore supports your conclusion and the big reveal is coming soon. How many releases have to fail to deliver on your predictions before you realise they’re not drawing it out, you’re just wrong? Like Eido becoming Kell of Kells this Episode. She wasn’t even considered for the position and it went to the obvious candidate, Mithrax. Once the Epilogue with Skolas is finished, potentially this week, you may also have to accept your theory about Eido being his daughter and that playing a role in the Episode was also incorrect. Lightfall. Final Shape. Heresy. Frontiers. How long exactly is it until this great reveal? Are you finally going to see reason when nothing happens involving a revelation with Mara in the story itself? Or are you going to continue peddling that this idea of yours is the inevitable endgame until this franchise dies without confirming your grand speculation?

We'll see. 😇👍💠 The great reveal comes in Heresy, silly. The end of the Saga. That's what all my posts have been supplementing. The only out I will take is if the Gardener remains hidden, obviously. That's patient zero for me. But, otherwise I'll own whatever I get wrong. Fully. And I expect I'll get some things wrong. And you've failed here entirely... Reconcile what Lavinia discovered. This post began with her. Explain it? You can't, and immediately started quoting things out of context to save face. Employing the same reductive and bad faith tactics you always have.

If you want me to actually reconcile it, it’s rather simple actually. They’re two separate sentences in the same paragraph. One could easily write them off as separate revelations about the Nine. Unless there’s other lore you want to quote supporting the idea that Mara Sov was involved in allowing the Red Legion to more easily invade? Edit: So if the reveal doesn’t happen, you’ll concede that you were wrong about Mara?

It's said twice. One that expained the data collected in those reports from Jovian space. And later when it was connected directly to Mara Sov, that being the dark matter tech that allowed Ghaul to sneak up on us. Also, implied when she was pleading with Ikora... having information about the invasion related to both the Nine and Mara Sov. All that is explicit. Now, I talked about it... what inspired this post but let me go more into detail. I have been trying to figure out who Mara's friend in the tower was. She said she sent a Crow to Mercury and had a friend in the tower, connected to Rahool and Master Ives. I'd grab those references, but since you repost before I finish, you can find it. Ikora should have listened to Lavinia, but she sent her to her exile. Master Ives was assassinated. Who did that protect? If she had information about the Red War invasion... shouldn't we hear it at least? You can't reconcile that. By all accounts Lavinia was an altruist with no ill intent. And let's be absolutely CLEAR, she implicated the Consensus as well. Lavinia, [So, hey Ikora the judges are corrupt]. Ikora, [Well, see what the judges (council) has to say about that]. Judges, [Unanimous Exile]. Her end was horrible, as we understand it. That's literally what happened, I just simplified it. You know the first time I read the Hidden Dossier, my ears did perk up. That letter from Ikora seemed weird. A warning... but an implication that she was/IS complicit. It doesn't look good for Ikora - those interactions with Lavinia... and her letter reads like, in part, an explanation for possibly sending Lavinia to her exile and presumed death. You can say I'm wrong, I'll accept that. But, I'm not making this stuff up. Talking about "bomb logic". Clearly vital, despite you quoting it out of context.

[quote]It's said twice. One that expained the data collected in those reports from Jovian space. And later when it was connected directly to Mara Sov, that being the dark matter tech that allowed Ghaul to sneak up on us. Also, implied when she was pleading with Ikora... having information about the invasion related to both the Nine and Mara Sov.[/quote] You’ll have to quote the first one but Mara isn’t mentioned in the plea to Ikora, especially given Lavinia doesn’t have that information yet, if that is what the quote implies despite, again, separate sentences. [quote]She said she sent a Crow to Mercury and had a friend in the tower, connected to Rahool and Master Ives.[/quote] Osiris and Eris, I’ve quoted that lore in responses while you had me blocked, though MC repeated it for you to address. You know this has been answered in the Grimoire. [quote]Ikora should have listened to Lavinia, but she sent her to her exile. Master Ives was assassinated.[/quote] Ives assassination had nothing to do with the Reef. Surprise, it’s never explicitly stated but he was captured for interrogation regarding the Cryptarchy. Because what do the Fallen aligned with the old Devils do the next time we see them? Invade the old Tower and perfectly cut into the Cryptarch’s vault to steal Outbreak Perfected, under Eramis’s orders. [quote] Her end was horrible, as we understand it.[/quote] Her end was exactly what she was also going to get. Recalled by the one who set her on the path to investigate the Nine. Savathûn. [quote]You know the first time I read the Hidden Dossier, my ears did perk up. That letter from Ikora seemed weird. A warning... but an implication that she was/IS complicit. It doesn't look good for Ikora - those interactions with Lavinia... and her letter reads like, in part, an explanation for possibly sending Lavinia to her exile and presumed death.[/quote] How does her letter read as having anything to do with Lavinia? The Hidden have operated much like Mara Sov does, they’re the intelligence agency of the Last City. Ikora is acting to protect information from leaking to the people of the City that could very much turn them against a potential ally in the Nine. A decision that reads as far more justified if she was aware that it was a rogue one of the Nine and the others disagreed with it.

You can find the quotes. Master Ives... House of Dusk. Led by who? Uldren Sov... when it ****in' happened, lol. Not connected? Osiris can't be a Crow and you know why. Here's why: [url=https://destiny.wiki.gallery/images/thumb/6/65/OsirisInfobox.jpg/450px-OsirisInfobox.jpg]Osiris[/url] He's human. Until Season of Defiance when Mara gave us Queensguard, all elites of Mara have been Awoken. The Crows were founded by Uldren led by Joylon under orders of Mara Sov. The Crow sent to Mercury is Brother Vance with Trials lore supporting it. Brother Vance was Awoken and was feeding information to Mara Sov. And Eris wasn't in the tower then. And we know that because this was right after they arrived from the Distributary. She was always on expedition... and didn't connect with Ikora until the Amhakara Hunt... wasn't connected to Rahool until after that. You can read it in her bio. She was a friend of Mara, they were communicating... so I'll concede there is room for doubt there. And the way you reconcile sending Lavinia to her exile and death by the same council she was, in part, implicating... WAS that she deserved it? Ridiculous. You cannot reconcile that moment. Both Ikora and the council's actions in refusing to hear Lavinia kept that information secret. [i][b]"There are things the Consensus knows about Ghaul's attack, things they haven't told us—"[/b][/i]

[quote]You can find the quotes. Master Ives... House of Dusk. Led by who? Uldren Sov... when it ****in' happened, lol.[/quote] Actually Master Ives was killed in the first Festival of the Lost, this quest takes place after Uldren traded Dusk for the Scorn and after Uldren’s death. This is why these Fallen have returned to the Cosmodrome, without leadership they are attempting to return to their old ways by reclaiming stashed Devils supplies. [quote]Osiris can't be a Crow and you know why. The Crow sent to Mercury is Brother Vance with Trials lore supporting it. And Eris wasn't in the tower then. And we know that because this was right after they arrived from the Distributary.[/quote] Osiris isn’t a Crow, the quote doesn’t suggest anything. A Crow is being sent to summon Osiris, as well as Eris Morn. The quote also originates from the aftermath of the House of Wolves expansion, after our capture of Skolas. So Eris has been in the Tower for some time at this point. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/queens-ransom]Queen’s Ransom[/url] [quote]The Techeuns gather at the door as the Queen approaches it. Prince Uldren holds it open with a small bow, and the Queen touches his shoulder as she passes. "Send a Crow to Mercury. And another to our new friend in the Tower."[/quote] [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-queen-2]Ghost Fragment: The Queen 2[/url] [quote]Ghost Fragment: The Queen 2 "You don't have one." The Hunter came to a halt in front of the throne, raised her covered face to meet the Prince's gaze. "No," she agreed. "My next death will be my last." "I know the feeling," the Prince said dryly. The Queen kept her expression carefully distant. She sat reclined in her throne, legs crossed, surveying the two figures at the base of the steps. Beside her, where the Wolves' Guard used to stand, Techeuns Shuro and Sedia hovered instead, their jewel-like augments gently humming. To her right and just before stood the Prince, facing forward but his body half-turned back toward her. "Your Grace," said the man before her at the foot of the stairs. His voice was soft but strong. When he spoke the Hunter started to turn her head toward him, then flinched as if someone had shone a bright light into her eyes. ————————— “I have no wish to play politics. I have no grievance with the City, not anymore. I have no grand hopes to end the war, for long have I known I will not see its end. I am here for one battle, and one alone, because it is a battle we must all fight, together or separately. So I will warn the defenders, together or separately. I will do anything—" her low voice shook with passion— "to end Oryx." A silence rang out in the room. The Hunter kept her head raised, her ambiguous gaze directed at the shadows in the throne where the Queen reclined. Then a small smile curved the Queen's lips. "Well said." She straightened, and leaned slightly forward so the room's light fell on her face. "So let us end him." [/quote] See, plan to end Oryx. [quote]And the way you reconcile sending Lavinia to her exile and death by the same council she was, in part, implicating... WAS that she deserved it?[/quote] Death is ridiculous in this case. Ikora has no way of knowing Lavinia will die because of this action. As far as we know, there’s every chance she’s not dead. She could be a prisoner, or have been repurposed for some other purpose by the Witch Queen. [quote][i][b]"There are things the Consensus knows about Ghaul's attack, things they haven't told us—"[/b][/i][/quote] Again, nothing to do with Mara in this quote.

[i]"Actually Master Ives was killed in the first Festival of the Lost"[/i] This is wrong, but I don't want to nitpick... right after Forsaken, we found out during the FotL. But it's immaterial, because Uldren still led the House of Dusk. By proxy... you can look that up to, since the Red War. So now the Crow isn't Osiris... your response indicated via my juxtaposition, Osiris as the Crow... Eris as the "friend" in [THE TOWER]. You're changing things as we go. Osiris can't be a Crow. Eris was on expedition, but I conceded was Mara's friend. I'd accept your logic with Lavinia... if it made any sense. A whistleblower... should not be judged by the powers she was implicating. Couldn't have known? ****in' Ridiculous. That quote is connected to this one I already cited. [i][b]"Lavinia then saw all of [u]Mara's[/u] interactions with the Nine, and how one of them allowed Ghaul to sneak past the City's defensive satellite network".[/b][/i] That's what she was talking about. 😇👍💠

[quote][i]"Actually Master Ives was killed in the first Festival of the Lost"[/i] This is wrong, but I don't want to nitpick... right after Forsaken, we found out during the FotL.[/quote] Unless you can source a quote, no. We found out during Festival of the Lost because Petra Venj sent his stuff to Amanda during Festival of the Lost BECAUSE he was murdered. [quote]But it's immaterial, because Uldren still led the House of Dusk.[/quote] He didn’t actually. When him and Fikrul killed the House of Kings before they were both imprisoned, Uldren lost control of Dusk as they splintered without any central leadership. He didn’t even care, because he went searching for Mara on his own. Scared Petra, ran to Illyn, and then surrendered. [quote]So now the Crow isn't Osiris... your response indicated via my juxtaposition, Osiris as the Crow... Eris as the "friend" in [THE TOWER]. You're changing things as we go. Osiris can't be a Crow. Eris was on expedition, but I conceded was Mara's friend.[/quote] Never stated Osiris was a Crow. The quote clearly states two separate crows were dispatched to Mercury and the Tower. The individuals they were sent to are Osiris and Eris. We know it was them she contacted, because they show up for a secret council as I’ve already shown. [quote]I'd accept your logic with Lavinia... if it made any sense. A whistleblower... should not be judged by the powers she was implicating. Couldn't have known? ****in' Ridiculous. That quote is connected to this one I already cited.[/quote] So explain to me how Ikora could’ve known Lavina would end up in the Reef, watch a recording of Skolas, end up an Awoken ship and incidentally learn the Nine we’re watching Calus, be imprisoned for learning of the Nine, be freed by a rogue Awoken, jump into the Cocytus gates, end up entering the Nine dimension and then being abducted by Savathûn, who was influencing her since birth for this purpose. There’s also the fact Ikora says consequences she can’t protect her from. Ikora didn’t banish her herself. She had to submit her to the authorities who all voted unanimously to banish her from the City, for stealing an Ahamkara bone. Which is a very powerful and dangerous artifact, hence why it was locked away.

You can look it up, there is nuance... In his bio on Destinypedia... And Ikora need not know the EXACT results... But simple logic would demand you not throw Lavania to the wolves, council, she was implicating. And Lavania was a scribe... exile beyond the city's protection was certain death. You can try to deny that reality... but no way Lavinia deserved that. You can see in her accounting that she was trying to help humanity; she didn't betray her oath... she stood on it, on its principles. You cannot reconcile Ikora's or the Council's actions. It was important information, that was clearly suppressed.

[quote]You can look it up, there is nuance... In his bio on Destinypedia... [/quote] And I’m talking the actual quest chain, both the interactions, descriptions and transcripts of dialogue, including the mission. Nothing mentions time, but unless Petra delayed sending his things and informing the Tower, he was killed closer to the Festival than Forsaken. And again, I point to the fact that Uldren wasn’t in control of Dusk by Forsaken anyways. Fikrul had begun converting Fallen into Scorn on the Tangled Shore and the only interaction we see with Dusk is with the trembling dregs within the Dark Forest. [quote]But simple logic would demand you not throw Lavania to the wolves, council, she was implicating.[/quote] All she’s implicating them in is a cover up, and even that isn’t something she knows for sure because the paper she read that theory in was discredited in the report she got it from. She wasn’t put on trial for her discovery of that information, she was scolded for it and Rahool put a watch on her for her own protection, which resulted in her being followed. She was put on trial for stealing an Ahamkara Bone. Ikora gave her an out by asking her to drop the line of inquiry, but once she refused it had to be reported, because she was just going to do it again. [quote]And Lavania was a scribe... exile beyond the city's protection was certain death. You can try to deny that reality... but no way Lavinia deserved that.[/quote] Clearly not, given there are numerous other settlements outside of the City at this time. And given the odds of securing travel to the Reef outside of the City on Earth… well, there’s every chance she was dropped off there, potentially even as a replacement for Ives. It all depends on why she was arrested for espionage- was it because of that what she was watching? Or was it because her presence wasn’t announced to the Awoken? [quote]You can see in her accounting that she was trying to help humanity; she didn't betray her oath... she stood on it, on its principles. You cannot reconcile Ikora's or the Council's actions.[/quote] Actually, I can. Because she stole an Ahamkara bone. Whether intentional or not, any wish she made could lead to incalculable disaster. That’s the threat for which she was exiled by the tribunal. [quote]It was important information, that was clearly suppressed.[/quote] Clearly not that important, as it has practically affected nothing since then.

The context of what she said disputes your dismissal. The bone was returned... She could have avoided punishment entirely, seriously just read it... or you're doing it on purpose... again. [i][b]"Ikora Rey puts up one finger. Lavinia shuts up. "Choose. Are you going to go back to school, and let me pretend you were never here? Or do I have to report you for theft of an Ahamkara bone?""[/b][/i] You got no paddle, you got no boat. River is full of ****.

[quote]The context of what she said disputes your dismissal. The bone was returned... She could have avoided punishment entirely, seriously just read it... or you're doing it on purpose... again. [i][b]"Ikora Rey puts up one finger. Lavinia shuts up. "Choose. Are you going to go back to school, and let me pretend you were never here? Or do I have to report you for theft of an Ahamkara bone?""[/b][/i] You got no paddle, you got no boat. River is full of ****.[/quote] Nothing in that quote disproves what I said. She was reported and tried for stealing an Ahamkara bone. Ikora offered to let it slide if she gave up pursuing her investigation into the Nine and taking insane risks in the process.

Your leaps of logic are insane, lol. River full of ****. 😇👍💠 If you read from the beginning, the New Monarchy representative Guardians were going to attack her, until Ikora intervened... without a trial. By the way New Monarchy was a part of the Consensus Lavinia told Ikora was hiding information about the invasion. Who was on the council?