[i]"the previous hypothesis from Hermann that Mara wanted him immediately executed to cover her own tracks"[/i] Never said that. Quote the full thing. We're close enough now, I unblocked you for now. She gave Skolas to the Nine to cover her own tracks, because she feared they might try to disrupt her plan... and man, you never read what I posted before and still aren't now. Because I DID cite that lore in full! The Nine aren't a monolith, she could not risk being exposed. That's where Orin and his conversations with Lavinia come into play. That's why Germaine doesn't trust Mara Sov and has stated as much in the most recent FotL VO with Eido. Mara betrayed the last city... Mara betrayed her own people. That's why Mara is the "Heretic". Not "evil"... you always mischaracterize what I say. She is broken. However, it was still her choice.

[quote][i]"the previous hypothesis from Hermann that Mara wanted him immediately executed to cover her own tracks"[/i] Never said that. Quote the full thing. We're close enough now, I unblocked you for now. She gave Skolas to the Nine to cover her own tracks, because she feared they might try to disrupt her plan... and man, you never read what I posted before and still aren't now. Because I DID cite that lore in full! The Nine aren't a monolith, she could not risk being exposed. That's where Orin and his conversations with Lavinia come into play. That's why Germaine doesn't trust Mara Sov and has stated as much in the most recent FotL VO with Eido. Mara betrayed the last city... Mara betrayed her own people. That's why Mara is the "Heretic". Not "evil"... you always mischaracterize what I say. She is broken. However, it was still her choice.[/quote] Thought you said you blocked them? Seems like you see their posts just fine. 🤣🤣

It was the new year MC, decided to give them a chance. Now I have only 2 people blocked, lol. Like, here's the truth... I'm really confident now, tbh, too confident... So, I'm sure I'm missing something. I thought by recapping... Because these are Shockwave's tactics... he makes me repeat everything, even if I've already gone over it in detail. Cool, let's do that... it's a good time. He does know the lore. So maybe in our debate, I thought... I can fact check my work. But he didn't want to debate faithfully, immediately began posting over my responses before I could finish answering them. Using multiple threads at once to confuse the fluidity of the topic in addressing his objections. Quoting deliberately out of context. So, I stopped. I gave him a real chance. How about you? How do you reconcile the accounts of Lavinia per one Mara Sov in aiding Ghaul? 🤓 I'd much rather debate you MC. I wish you would come back to it. I mean what I've said before. Hyper-intelligent A real challenger when you try Adept in rhetoric and logic. I liked your posts and writing and supported it. AND, Bungie never should have said what they said. And I was sad when it happened. Why don't you try to enjoy the game for what it is. You wanna know why I quit the feedback group? In RoI, I was so angry at the devs. I was like you, jaded AF. Not over the story... mechanics. I don't have any direct control over what happens. Then D2 arrived and Arecibo brought me back in a new way. I decided to enjoy the game for what it was. You're good for the community MC, you are... when you want to be. 😇👍💠 I apologize for the quip about your parents too, I'll own that. Out of line.

[quote]She gave Skolas to the Nine to cover her own tracks, because she feared they might try to disrupt her plan...[/quote] She gave Skolas to the Nine because the Awoken were delving into Jovian territory, she gave them Skolas. He was her greatest prize, a trophy of a war won, that she hoped would appease them. [url=https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-Queen]Ghost Fragment: The Queen[/url] [quote]”More of your brother’s Crows have entered the Cauldrons of Rhea.” The Witch directly before her spoke with a dry buzz. “The Nine do not approve.” ————————— If she paused to think it was only for an instant. “Send them Skolas.” “A lovely gesture.” [/quote] How does giving them Skolas possibly cover her tracks when he could be interrogated by beings he doesn’t comprehend? Then the Nine freed Skolas knowing Mara would have to invite the Guardians into the Reef, starting a cooperative relationship that has saved us time and time again. [quote]That's why Germaine doesn't trust Mara Sov and has stated as much in the most recent FotL VO with Eido.[/quote] Also it would be good to see this dialogue from Eido and Drifter about Mara, instead of alluding to it. Especially considering if it was during Festival, it’s likely ambient dialogue harder to track down. [quote]That's where Orin and his conversations with Lavinia come into play.[/quote] As well as this conversation between Orin and Lavinia, as I don’t recall either character crossing paths. Particularly given Lavinia’s short stay in the Reef. Lavinia’s serves two important roles to us. She teaches us much about the Nine, and then she is captured by Savathûn, so that the Witch Queen may glean this knowledge. She was created or influenced by Savathûn for this purpose, to get what information she couldn’t from her enemies. Which further points to the fact that Mara and Savathûn are not allies, as this is knowledge that Mara has. Orin is also a she. And another reason for Mara being so willing to have her prisoner executed in the Arena. [url=https://www.Ishtar-collective.net/cards/prison-of-elders]Prison of Elders[/url] [quote]And if, as the Queen worries, the Nine are scheming against her, then she needs a good excuse to clear out some of the most dangerous prizes in the Prison of Elders[/quote] At the time of House of Wolves Mara viewed the release of Skolas as an attack from the Nine, it is only later she realised the motive behind it and the limits of the Nines understanding of our reality. The thing about Mara you need to understand is she was an ally who kept her cards close to her chest, trusted few with her secrets and sought to gather as many resources under her command because of it. It isn’t until Season of the Lost where she realises that Crow is very much still Uldren in her eyes and has to deal with the fact she killed him by not keeping him in the loop about the plan to end Oryx. Something that allowed Riven an opening to both pretend to be her and allowed Riven to turn him on the Awoken, her captors, who she despised. Of course, this also led to his death at the hands of Guardians when Savathûn and Riven schemed to lure the Guardians into the Dreaming City, one of the best twists this franchise has ever pulled.

[i]"How does giving them Skolas possibly cover her tracks when he could be interrogated by beings he doesn’t comprehend"?[/i] You answered your own question yet omitted the important bit, [i]"She gave Skolas to the Nine because the Awoken were delving into Jovian territory...."[/i] Against their permission to do so. And by the way, the rejected it. Skolas was given to delay, so that she would have time to orchestrate her death, fake death... to hide from the consequences of her actions. Lavinia talks directly to Orin, I cited the book. [i]""Come," the voice calls. "I am Nasya. You are not safe. Come with me.""[/i] The last entry of Dust. [url=https://www.destinypedia.com/Lore:Dust#The_Witch]The Witch[/url] Dust is all about Lavinia. [i]"And if, as the Queen worries, the Nine are scheming against her, then she needs a good excuse to clear out some of the most dangerous prizes in the Prison of Elders" [/i] You're ignoring what she did entirely. Reconcile it. And the rest is mostly nonsense. Clearly 2 factions of the Nine... The one that sent Skolas back... and the one Mara used to aid Ghaul. That was why she was in Jovian space as Lavinia discovered. That's why Lavinia got so excited when she found out the Nine were NOT a monolith. [i]"Lavinia's translator murmurs along with the Kell's words. "The Nine's agent never told me why he released me. Now I know. You know also, I think. [u]Both of you require the Guardians... [/u]and the Nine do not understand life and death. So they sent me back to you, to make the Guardians come. They did not comprehend the harm. "I do not comprehend them either. I traveled among the Jovians for years, in their dominion. But I do not know the Nine. You, Mara Sov... you are the only one who bargains with them. You are the only one who has foreseen their role in the game. You keep your successes secret, so the world only knows your mistakes. No wonder I underestimated you." He hefts the scorch cannon his jailers have given him. Lavinia thinks of the tools his House once favored: shuttle and loom. "I saw the shape of the Nine on Venus. A place that was once precious to them, where wishes could transfigure their flesh. I saw that they are bound to this star and to these worlds. You are of a kind in that way, you and the Nine. Not I. I will be glad to leave this world, Mara Sov. I am tired of being a pawn." Skolas lays his huge horned head back against the cell wall. Lavinia, watching, spills her tea in excitement. "They want to help us," she whispers. "They're from our planets! They want to help! Oh, I'm sorry, I'm so clumsy—""[/i] Mara used us. She used the Cabal, the Elikisni... the Amhakara... it's all explicitly recorded in her own words. Speaking of Humanity, [i]"Esila, famed historian, puts voice to the plea in the crowd. [u]"So they need our help, don't they? We have to go to them! Our ships, our technology—we could make all the difference."[/u] [u][b]"No."[/b][/u] Mara collapses the projected images between her hands. She stayed up late wrestling with this dilemma, which kept her from wrestling with Sjur. It was a choice she had to make alone. [b][u]"We can't reveal our existence, lest the Fallen track us down. We need more information. Our focus must remain on securing this derelict reef, bootstrapping industry and a population, and scouting out the solar system.""[/u][/b][/i] [url=https://www.destinypedia.com/Lore:The_Awoken_of_the_Reef#Revanche_II]Revanche II[/url] You're wrong, by Mara's own words, literally right before this... [i]"Mercury is—well, you can see for yourself." Gasps of horror at the clockwork cinder, all that remains of the legendary garden world. "We believe this may be the work of the Vex, a machine species listed in Shipspire's threat index.""[/i] She could have helped. Didn't. What happened on Mercury? This is right after they left the distributary. The colonists' massacre by the House of Rain that began the Vanguard conflict with the Elikisni. But they were already there in hiding, we were told the House of Rain were the aggressors. Look up the House of Rain. They wanted peace.