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originally posted in: Precursors vs Lovecraft
11/25/2014 7:27:14 PM
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The Precursors would not stand a chance. The fact that they were nearly genocided by the Forerunners (a purely physical entity, though highly advanced), is enough evidence that they would never be able to hold their own against a race of gods whose existences transcend understanding.
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  • You're an idiot.

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  • [quote]I don't know enough about lovecraft to judge.[/quote] On the one hand, you haven't the basis to construct an argument of your own, Yet on the other hand, you think you still have the authority to judge other people's? [quote]You're an idiot.[/quote] Frankly, I don't see why a discussion of a hypothetical conflict between two fictional deitic entities needs to descend to name-calling.

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  • I called you an idiot on your lack of knowledge. I didn't make an argument without apt knowledge like you.

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  • [quote]I called you an idiot on your lack of knowledge.[/quote] So someone who lacks knowledge is an idiot, then? I suppose that makes all children idiots because they can't function on our level of thought? Are all farmers idiots because they can't construct a particle acclerator? Are all physicists idiots because they can't service a combine harvester? [quote]I didn't make an argument without apt knowledge like you[/quote] Indeed, I suppose the middle ground is the safest for those whose minds suffer at great heights. Regardless of who is and isn't an idiot, where did it ever seem that I was uninformed? Could you cite the relevant passages? Furthermore, could you refute the points I made, and thereby enlighten us all with this "apt knowledge" you seem to be able to identify? This all seems to be a bit beside the point anyway. The OP and myself were discussing [b]fictional[/b] characters and their [b]likely[/b] performances in a [b]hypothetical[/b] situation. I guess I'm a little confused as to how you seem to think there is "apt knowledge" on this at all.

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  • Edited by Luis: 11/25/2014 8:53:43 PM
    The Precursors didn't fight back when the Forerunners attacked them, but Lovecraft would still win.

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  • Edited by Atticus: 11/25/2014 8:26:00 PM
    The thing is; the Precursors didn't defend themselves because to them it was fun watching the Forerunners frustratingly trying to prevent the inevitable death of their kind. Only one precursor, the Primordial, waged war against all of the forerunners at once, and even made them violate their own philosophy - protecting the life of the galaxy at all costs - by building Halo which is basically a galaxy-wide genocide machine. All of this while the other ones watched in death. The Primordial basically laughed down the forerunners and mocked them after they made the decision to fire the Halos. Basically what the Precursors did in the universe is to them, what wreaking havoc on Sim-City would be to us. There are actual quotes for this (not the Sim-City part), I'll just brb.

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  • Primordial himself was also ultimately destroyed, by the Forerunners, who placed him in stasis and forced him to age several billion years in a short time. This indicates that they cannot subsist without a corporal manifestation, and can indeed be killed. Simply because they allowed themselves to be annihilated doesn't change the fact that they were. The Precursors are still bound to reality by at least a token amount of physical presence. What exists can be destroyed. The Elder Gods, on the other hand, transcend a corporeal understanding (most of them do, anyway). They typically do not inhabit space and time as we understand it. They cannot be affected by something as trivial as time. For example, in [i]The Call of Cthulhu[/i], the protagonist drives a boat (and this is a cargo ship for international transport, mind you) through the body of Cthulhu, who immediately reassembles. I would quote the relevant passage, but it's [i]so[/i] long...

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  • Edited by Atticus: 11/25/2014 9:09:51 PM
    [quote]Primordial himself was also ultimately destroyed, by the Forerunners, who placed him in stasis and forced him to age several billion years in a short time. This indicates that they cannot subsist without a corporal manifestation, and can indeed be killed. Simply because they allowed themselves to be annihilated doesn't change the fact that they were. The Precursors are still bound to reality by at least a token amount of physical presence. What exists can be destroyed.[/quote]They chose to become physical forms that can happen to be killed, their minds or spirit transcends death and essentially they can take any form they wish to be. If they actually have to take physical form to manipulate the universe I don't know, because as said in the OP I didn't read the books because of reasons. That said I am still fairly sure that the artificial aging had no effect on the Primordial('s mind) at all. Things that are sure though as far as my memory is concerned: >They, at the least, exist since 100 billion years (confirmed by the Mantle which stored data from that time) making them far older than the universe itself >They play with reality like a kid in a sandbox (Lovecraft gods probably do that too but that's besides the point) >They create life itself and manipulate it at will, also going so far that they use it to build constructions with it (neural physics; that's how understood the principle of it) >They are sadistic bastards [quote]The Elder Gods, on the other hand, transcend a corporeal understanding (most of them do, anyway). They typically do not inhabit space and time as we understand it. They cannot be affected by something as trivial as time.[/quote]All of that are traits of the Precursors too. [EDIT]: Not sure about the time thing though. Did you read Silentium? Would be kind of interested in an educated guess that knows detailed information from both sides of the debate. But at this point, where would you put the Precursors in the Lovecraft hierarchy?

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  • [quote]They chose to become physical forms that can happen to be killed, their minds or spirit transcends death and essentially they can take any form they wish to be. If they actually have to take physical form to manipulate the universe I don't know, because as said in the OP I didn't read the books because of reasons. That said I am still fairly sure that the artificial aging had no effect on the Primordial('s mind) at all.[/quote] Primordial (and the remaining Precursors) returned as the Flood; their collective mind saved in the form of the Gravemind. The Gravemind, however, still didn't have the same capacity as Primordial did, and this is despite the fact that he was an amalgamation of [i]all[/i] the remaining Precursors. Therefore, while perhaps Primordial's mind (for lack of a better word) survived the "death" by aging, there was still a problem; the perseverance was imperfect. This still insists that the Precursors are fundamentally living things, they cannot exist to their full capacity beyond a physical tether. The Precursors are not gods; Lovecraft's characters are. [quote]Did you read Silentium? Would be kind of interested in an educated guess that knows detailed information from both sides of the debate. But at this point, where would you put the Precursors in the Lovecraft hierarchy?[/quote] I haven't read Silentium; my knowledge of Halo lore stems from the games, terminals, and wikis. I don't know if that really harms my credibility, but I have read the majority of Lovecraft's stories. Agreed, I wish I knew enough about each side to make that call; I'll admit, I'm a bit biased toward Lovecraft. I would categorize the Precursors as a sort of intermediate step between humanity and the Elder Gods; on par with the Mi-go. They posess a number of the same general abilities as the Gods, but lack the deitic perfection of Azathoth and the rest.

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