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Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by Magic Air: 8/1/2014 1:46:47 AM
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No raid matchmaking? Ridiculous.

My original post is here: http://pastebin.com/BL75R0Fs - but in case you haven't heard, it was confirmed yesterday that there is no matchmaking for raids; 'friends-only'. [b]Update: So, we have the update from Luke Smith, Raid Design Lead. The quote of which you can see at the bottom of this post. I'd also like to outline a few simple points here.[/b] [b]Firstly, if Bungie do not support raid matchmaking, players will find a way to do it themselves.[/b] People everywhere are already resorting to swapping gamertags/psn over forums. This isn't 'hardcore clanship', this is matchmaking in its simplest form. People everywhere are resorting to joining clans specifically for the purpose of raiding. Again, this isn't 'hardcore clanship', this is random people joining other random people specifically for the purpose of raiding. This is matchmaking in its simplest form. [b]This isn't people forming guild like bonds in order to conquer with coordination and investment. This is people desperately joining up with whoever they can just so they can raid.[/b] You don't have to take my word for it, this is observable on any social gaming medium where there is an interest in Destiny right now; b.net, reddit, neogaf, and anywhere else you can think of. [b]Secondly, difficulty.[/b] It's all relative. What I deem 'very difficult' is not the same as what you deem 'very difficult'. Your idea of 'very difficult' may be equivalent to my idea of 'not so difficult' - the same holds true for one's sense of 'enjoyment' - if the raid requires 'dedication' in 'cooperation' and 'investment', these are not specifications that are inherent to 'friends'. These are the characteristics of those who choose to adopt said characteristics. It doesn't matter whether i'm in a clan, a random group, or with one of my 'friends'. If I want to communicate and invest my time, I will do so. The same can be said for any player, clan or none, group or none, lots of friends or no friends. [b]So then how is the 'barrier' that defines the raid as 'friends-only', determined by two characteristics that don't apply only to 'friends? It's not logical.[/b] It seems to me that Bungie's actual goal here is for the raid to be as inaccessible, and uncompleted, for as long as possible; to artificially extend the playtime of the game. It's true that this is simple conjecture. It's true that at this point in time it is merely my 'opinion', but it is the only logical explanation. [b]Thirdly, excuses.[/b] There are those who say that making the raid more accessible will encourage 'crying' from 'casuals' who can't handle the 'difficulty'. That raids are 'this' or 'that' and 'not for you'. If I want to attempt a raid I damn well bloody will. Raids are for everybody who has the balls to attempt them. And that's the point here, everybody and their mums are desperately joining up with anybody else, just to raid. It's not going to be 'hardcore groups', whatever that means, being the only ones who attempt it. It's going to be by hundreds, thousands, of those who simply chose to 'matchmake' regardless. As they are already doing. I wouldn't be surpised if the raid gets completed by a group who simply swapped their gamertags/psn on a forum right before the raid, and only met in-game upon entering the raid. At some point, Bungie will have to acknowledge it. At what difficulty somebody perceives the raid, is what will decide if somebody chooses to 'cry' to the forum. It doesn't have to be a 'casual', whatever that means, when most people are showing the commitment necessary to at least attempt the raid. Somebody who has joined a clan, or swapped their gamertag, or is playing with friends, will complain that the raid is too difficult, [b]if they want to[/b]. No amount of 'clan', 'friend', or 'hardcore' status will determine this for them. Somebody who wants to complain over difficulty, will indeed complain over difficulty, whether they're in a clan or not. This means that the more accessible the raid, or any aspect of the game, the more people will complain, because more people will be accessing it. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with 'clans' or 'friends' or 'casuals' or 'hardcore'. Complainers will complain, and more people means more complaints. [b]Fourth, longevity.[/b] Destiny is a franchise, the first of up to [b]four sequels[/b] and [b]four expansions[/b]. In a year's time, Destiny will be outdated by its expansion; after that, the sequel. This 'gear' you think you're entitled to for proclaiming yourself as 'hardcore', won't mean anything for any significant amount of time. You won't 'become legend' no matter how many times Bungie bangs it into your ears. On top of that, a dedicated player is a dedicated player; somebody who invests their time matchmaking and somebody who invests their time with 'friends' are equally invested. Whatever sense of entitlement you have for calling yourself 'hardcore' or playing with 'friends', is completely redundant. Dedication is determined by the player. Investment is determined by the player. Communication is determined by the player. Coordination is determined by the player. Difficulty is perceived by the player. Not 'friends'. Not matchmaking. Not 'clans'. [b][i]"This is not real life. You don't go into a raid, fail and die in real life like you would going for the peak of K2. This is a video game where if you lose you can try again and that's what every raider will do. Fail and fail and fail until they succeed. MM does not change that for anyone whether you choose to use it or not."[/i][/b] - kingofthejuice Update from Luke Smith, Raid Design Lead: [quote]Source: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123373556&postcount=1085 I understand everyone's frustration about the decision to not have matchmaking in a post-matchmaking world. I also understand the limitations that this places on the activity's adoption at scale. That barrier to entry - the requirement that you get a group of people together and venture into something that is going to challenge your ability to work together (first) and your thumbs (second) - is a barrier I was willing to erect to preserve the activity goals. Bleeding edge hardcore groups will invest some significant amount of time in figuring out the encounters and making their way through the Vault. I fully expect groups to beat Normal mode in the first week its available. This is intentional, I'd like any group that is motivated and willing to cooperate to make their way through the Raid on Normal. I've talked some about thumbskill challenge vs. investment challenge vs. cooperation challenge in some interviews, and the Normal Raid difficulty prioritizes cooperation challenge and investment challenge. I expect Hard mode to take longer. Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours. However, the first time through, learning everything and arranging your group will take some hard-to-predict amount of time until some clan releases their strategies on YouTube. The Vault of Glass is in many ways an activity that will build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise. If you're going to stream it this Fall, please feel free to let me know here. I'd love to tune in.[/quote]
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  • bump bump. Add raid matchmaking. No excuse not to have it. Even with all this bs planning and communication. The "raiders" just dont want to see everyone have endgame gear. ALso this is starting to make me think bungie doesnt have as much content as they originally were leading on

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  • There is no reason match making should not be implemented. In an age where every industry is moving towards ease of accessibility and convenience, forcing an archaic system of grouping on the player-base is questionable. Destiny is a relatively simple game to play. In a raid setting there will be no main tank/off tank rotations, no buffing/de-buffing rotations, and no heal chains. Without the depth of a traditional class based system the difficulty and communication excuse just doesn't work. Since everyone fills basically the same roll, all you will need to know is what weapon damage type works best, the mob kill order, and boss/mini boss strategy. This will all be available online for anyone to view one week from release after the first batch of players make it through. If the idea is to limit accessibility to extend the life of end game content then there are better ways to do it and they are already in use in just about every other MMO in existence. It is not hard to come up with a risk reward system that favors grouping with friends without limiting content for a very large portion of the community.

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    • I wouldn't mind raid matchmaking either but its not as bad as i thought it would be. destiny lfg has blessed me with a few groups that have been able to first take crota.

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    • Get some friends then

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      • Just reading that quote started to induce some rage. How about making your game accessible to people who spent their hard earned money on it and who trust you not to bend them over. Never forget.

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      • Edited by TheKFDCase: 7/31/2014 10:25:44 PM
        Man, that statement by Luke Smith about a 6-person raid team requiring "hardcore coordination" or some other such thing that makes it sound like a near impossible expedition without life-long friends is such BS. One of two things will happen: 1) People will find a way to surmount the odds, or 2) people will not surmount the odds. This shouldn't be dependant upon finding 5 "friends" *just to gain access!* As the OP correctly points out, people are scrambling to get in to any kind of clan just to be able to play a *key part* of the game that they are *paying for!* I wasn't initially inclined to let this exceedingly poor judgement call on Bungie's behalf dissuade me from sticking with my pre-order, yet the more I think about it, the more upset I'm becoming. Maybe I really should just go for "Diablo III: Ultimate Evil Edition" and get my loot fix there. As a side-bonus, that would also see reviews from all sorts of quarters release before paying for this game. (I enjoyed much of the beta, yet I was also left hugely frustrated by various aspects of it.) How in the nine hells can anyone - Bungie or otherwise - reasonably expect anyone to make 5 "friends" when all we have are a very underwhelming 4 emotes - that's right: 4! - to communicate with? (Wave, dance, sit, and point.) Heck, I suspect an awful lot of us beta players didn't even realize you have to join a fire-team to activate voice chat. If I didn't know better, I'd say that Bungie's development team for "Destiny" have been living in a bunker in the Arctic Circle cut-off from the rest of humanity and civilization since ca. 1998. I'm going to end it here for now since I sense a full-blown rage tirade coming on the more I focus on this utter tripe. FFS Bungie! All you have to do is implement the basic staples of what *any* online game has today - has had for the past decade!

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        • How are you supposed to find a replacement if one of the raid members gets DC'd or has to log off? There's no chat channels... Have everyone search their friends list, or recent players list? I don't know if there even is a recent players list on the ps4. All of my raiding experience comes from WoW, mostly pre-BC. Back then we used to use chat channels for finding groups for 5 man instances and you needed to join a guild for the 40/20 man ones. That's not unreasonable because that's a lot of people. If they're not going to do a match making system that's fine, but they need to have some sort of method to communicate with people besides forums and the app. Those are fine for establishing new relationships and guilds, but not when Steve's house gets struck by lightning and he disconnects 2 hours into the 3 hour raid. I don't know why I'm even complaining we all know that not only will the alleged difficulty be nerfed, they'll also more than likely add matchmaking to the game too shortly after launch, whether some of us are in favor or not.

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        • If you want matchmaking go and play WoW, this is what the real RAIDERS want, NO MATCHMAKING

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          • Wow you actually have to make friends? Damn GG for me I'm gonna cancel.. (That's how retarded you sound)

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            • Lol fail logic, how can you argue about longevity but can´t seem to add enough friends into your list in all that time? I can´t even find 2 good people with a friend when we play Cod Zombie maps for high rounds (which requires no gear at all, not stats. Only teamwork) and I may get 2 good people out of 20 MM´s Raids are for a true team. Not strangers. Hit the forums if you could´t find 5 people online in your list after hours of playing to lvl 20. .

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              • Good lord people! do you know how easy it is to find people to raid with? Go one the forums! or join a clan! just stop whining about it! Tyger did it on the forums to prove it! he made a thread saying who want to go on a a raid tonight? he literally got back hundreds of responses. and another reason they might not have put in matchmaking is they want the experience to be memorable with that can work in unison and not in chaos, im sorry if this sounds like a rant (it kinda is) but i couldn't keep it in any longer!

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                • The argument is more; Raids demand teamwork, teams cooperate best, thus to beat a raid you must have cooperation. They aren't arguing whether friends are the best people to play with or that your friend group functions as a team. they are simply saying that the more familiar and team like approach you take the more likely you will be to succeed. There is a difference between working together for a common goal (teamwork) and working towards a common (goal). One requires planning, communication, determination, and skills necessary to achieve the objective the other only requires that parties recognize a common goal. There can be unsound arguments and invalid ones. Arguing about the meaning of a term doesn't mean it is illogical.

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                • Agreed!!!

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                • Bamp

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                • Edited by Sandbox73: 8/2/2014 1:00:27 AM
                  Why. Why do all these unsocial kids want to ruin destiny for all the hardcore players. Bungie please don't add raid mm or if you do don't make raids easier. Edit: you don't seem to know what hardcore/casual means

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                  • Edited by steadyhand08: 8/5/2014 7:23:22 PM
                    aahhh and thus with this dudes update it becomes clear, a design dudes EGO is overriding his common sense, we encountered this a lot in DUST514 with CCP. well guys we just have to put up with it until the rest of bungie staffers release what a stuiped stain this is on an otherwise flawless game and force him to change his mind or just overrule him. beucase honestly his logic here is completely and utterly flawed who let the WoW fanboy in change of something important should be the tag line. to be honest based on that up we can expect matchmaking to be patched in before most of us have to worry about it. i guess no game is safe for a leads ego. edit: further point, how are we meant to find friends i cant -blam!-ing talk to anyone in the game. i vote the communty finds a point in the tower to make the looking for raid hang out so we can just randomly add people. how about the bar underneath the hanger

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                  • I am disappointed at Bungie for not giving us MM option for Raids,atleast give us a chat window so we can ask if anyone wants to do a Raid run.I'm paying full price for a game i can't 100% access because of one set feature thats not in the game, video games should be fun not a chore to find people to play with.

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                  • Edited by FUS10NxART: 8/1/2014 7:44:37 PM
                    Well, Matchmaking is a very good tool. Imagine, Crucible without Matchmaking, it would killed Crucible and the whole PvP scene in Destiny. Matchmaking Strikes, works well, and you can play your lovely Strikes over and over again, you just need to press 1 button and the action can begin. Is it bad to have Matchmaking for Strikes? No, it would bad to do not have such option. Sure you can invite friends and make some runs, but for how long? Not everyone want grind 1 Strike over and over again, so you need to search, when you want make more runs. For what? When you can just simply use Matchmaking. People love that kind of comfort. Or imagine, 2 years after release. You want to try another class, and do some Strikes, but most people in your Friendlist are max level with all 3 classes, sou you need to look for some new beginners, and ask them to join your group for strikes. But we dont need to do such things, because we have Matchmaking! So it works so well, why we cant use it in Raids? And here we go, there was some threads in this forum where people had problems in Devil's Lair, because they played bad, had bad gear and weapons + Matchmaking with random people + bad randoms with same bad gear=Game Over! So what they do? They start threads in forums and want NERFS, because it was so hard. And it was The Devil's Lair, so easy this Strike, i did it so many times in Matchmaking, and i must say it was fun to teach many randoms to play it right, but they learn, and so they can do the same when they join Devil's Lair with next randoms. Because this people have the will to learn. But most people dont want to learn anything, they just want instant loot, and dont even try to play this game right. After some deaths they quit, ok you can finish a Strike like Devil's Lair even alone, but its boring and you need much more time. So, in the end you do not lose so much time. But what about Raids? When same bad people, join the Matchmaking and quit over and over again, or same bad people make the Raid harder than it is? They start to spam forums for nerfs, i promise you, people will open so many threads and scream for nerfs just because they had a bad experience in some Raid. More people would use Matchmaking for Raids than people with friends. But its ok, but what is definitely not ok, is when this mass of people starting screaming for nerfs. I think thats why Bungie dont want start a tool like Matchmaking for Raids. "Omg its was so long and hard, 2 hours srsly? Nerf this shit!" "This quitters, bungie, nerf them!" "Omg, after so many runs, still no exotic, wtf is this?NERF!!!" So in the end they would nerf the Raids just to make the casuals happy, and the real hardcore gamers who did the raids for challenge, are the sad ones, because there is no challenge anymore. Plus, this badass Raid loot is not so epic anymore because the nerfed Raids are just easy mode, and everyone can get the best Items. This is bullshit when you say: "I cant find some people for Raid!" Raid is End-Game content, so when you are such a End-Gamer you find easy more people than you need. Or how about all people who LF Raids, just use 1 area in the Tower? Planetarium maybe? The zone is empty, so people can hanging around Planetarium and everyone knows, this people looking for Raid. Because, it can be hard for most, asking all players in the Central Tower for Raids. Or Bungie need to made 1 special zone in Tower where people can group up for Raids. Raid Matchmaking would be not bad for Destiny, but all the whiners would ruin it, the whole balance and original design behind Raids.

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                    • Edited by vagrant123: 8/8/2014 3:17:19 PM
                      All match making needs to be successful is the simple addition of a team chat. Then on the way up through strikes and PvP you will be able to meet the people you are playing with and possibly form the bonds to raid. Also if you go into a match making raid everyone will be able to talk and form a strategy. Simply add team chat, allow match making and problem solved.

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                    • Edited by Vindicare_temple: 8/31/2014 10:37:57 AM
                      Pffft this is a joke raids need MM, that being said I will be doing them with people on my list I just wont be doing them very often. MM would help facilitate me doing raids when I cant get 5 friends together! maybe I feel like doing a raid and only have 2 or 3 friends on at that time? me + said friends + MM randoms = raid! .......but no bungie has to !@#$#@% on MM... and as for the individuals saying MM is a bad thing who would be forcing you to use it? sure it's not ideal, but I have smashed clans on Halo with randoms who just happened to be highly skilled players. Bungie is limiting content...taking away options and I think its unacceptable.

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                    • I really want MM cause I do not have any friends and I am totally bad at asking people so it would be a welcoming thing to me

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                      • If they allow matchmaking, it's says that the content is supposed to be something PUGs (pick-up groups) can complete. The inescapable fact, however, is that the content is not designed for that - and if the content is not designed to be something those groups can complete, then it would be inappropriate at best to endorse those groups going into by including matchmaking. All those people "implementing their own matchmaking" [i]aren't[/i]; there's a difference between forum coordination and matchmaking, and it's a very significant one: coordination, which is the exact thing that you're meant to need to complete this content.

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                      • Edited by Unholyconfesns: 8/31/2014 11:59:45 AM
                        Lol the one thing all of you people ranting about no matchmaking and how you would rather try and fail than not be able to try all don't realize or are somehow avoiding the fact that mm on difficult content is terrible take for instance the watered down version call of duty zombies if you are wanting to say go super far or maybe attempt the Easter egg with match made randoms how often do you get cut waaay short because one player died or is just plain bad? all the time, and sure you could argue your point that I'd rather be able to try than not at all but that doesn't change the fact that after a few times of this happening to you,it becomes very annoying, very tedious to want to try again to get that person who will stay through the end and not quit out halfway or more through and screw everyone over. For another example any of you who have had any experience in an actual mmo that also has raids ie; WoW there is no mm for the normal or hard mode versions of their raids and anyone who has attempted a raid a PuG (pickupgroup) will have 90% of the time at least one person who doesn't know the encounters or is just lacking coordination skills so you waste most times over an hour and not complete the raid and that is very frustrating. Although from the looks of the posts here I'm assuming most of you have no experience with an actual raid and what it means to do one they are unlike anything else most games have to offer. Now I may be ranting about all of this and Destiny's raid may be a complete joke and all of this is for nothing but I doubt it will be. Does that mean I'm 100% opposed to mm being implemented? Yes and no do I want it for normal or hard mode difficulties absolutely not, but I actually think having a mm system similar to lfr in WoW where if you want to experience a raid and that kind of endgame content but aren't hardcore or have all the time to dedicate to it in the world and have not desire for the super top tier gear of other difficulties then you go to matchmaking for a lesser difficulty than normal version of the raid with slightly worse quality gear but still better than what you can't just randomly get other places, this kind of a system is actually great and helps people who want to raid higher difficulties LEARN THE ENCOUNTERS which is very very essential to succeeding in any normal of harder raid environment and I would support the implementation of this type of matchmaking. Some of you are probably like ya but nobody wants to just do a dumbed down version.. In truth a lot more than you would think are fine with it, they get endgame content to look forward to but maybe don't have all the time in the world to get anymore serious than that.. Anyways I really do not think matchmaking in normal and hard mode difficulties of the raids is even remotely a good idea.. But whatever happens people who havnt experience the inconsistency of randoms will soon, only 8 days friends

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                      • Edited by DeusPhasmatis: 8/2/2014 7:26:16 AM
                        Raid matchmaking would be bad for the community-building aspect of Destiny. The point of Raids is to be challenging content that brings dedicated individuals together into an organized, prepared group to overcome them. If you let people circumvent the organization and coordination by providing matchmaking, the number of communities that form will be substantially less. This runs directly counter to Bungie's aim of creating a social environment. You can circumvent that to some degree by adding random forum people to your friends list, but that's inconvenient. And the inconvenience is the point; it's to discourage such behavior in favor of building a stable group of players who can meet up regularly to tackle the content. It also shouldn't be an option because many people will use it out of mere convenience. Player behavior in raids would be worse, because jumping back into a matchmaking queue is much easier than finding a new group of people to run with by hand. Since the experience of matchmade raiding will be much poorer, due to the vast incompetence of random groups combined with the social anxiety of being stuck with strangers and the lowered cost of abandoning the group, the overall raiding experience would be worsened. Raid matchmaking would be a trap that lures the average player into a terrible experience. Denying matchmaking encourages players to seek the better experience of a raiding clan or community. The game does need more social features. Talking to matchmade fireteams (strike, crucible, etc...). Full clan support: join and leave clans from in-game menus, lists of who's online in the clan, the ability to invite people to fireteams directly from the clan roster, clan chat channels, officer messages, etc... Finally, there should be some way for people to meet up for content in game: a bar or staging area where guardians can flag themselves as looking for a specific type of content and leave a short message. People would be able to browse said lists and inspect individuals, and be able to message and invite them from the interface.

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                        • My god for -blam!- sakes kids get some friends

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                        • I have a solution... Get some friends... Nuff said. If you don't have friends than join a clan and make some. Like serious guys come on.

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