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originally posted in: Thoughts on this video?
2/14/2014 10:34:43 AM
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Is he a vegan?
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  • Edited by Verbatim: 2/14/2014 10:39:08 AM
    Vegetarian. I think.

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  • LOL FU­CKING KNEW IT

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  • Hmm. How does he justify that? Most dairy cows are kept constantly pregnant and their calves are sent to the slaughterhouse. And gelatinous foods contain rennet.

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  • Obviously, he's gonna be against that, but being a vegetarian doesn't mean you're [i]for[/i] all that. Vegans are just vegetarians if we lived in an ideal society. In an ideal society, everyone would be a vegan, and all vegans are vegetarian by extension. Since we don't live in that society, it's inconvenient and cumbersome to be a vegan, because there are people who are literally addicted or dependent on eating meat, and your efforts to placate the issue will be for naught. His stance on it, if I recall correctly, is that eating meat is fine if you have a genuine appreciation for the damage done to the animal to satisfy your need to steal its energy. It shouldn't be a commodity.

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  • Edited by Pendulate: 2/14/2014 11:35:25 AM
    [quote]His stance on it, if I recall correctly, is that eating meat is fine if you have a genuine appreciation for the damage done to the animal to satisfy your need to steal its energy. It shouldn't be a commodity.[/quote] So he's strictly speaking about things like Native Indians who take time to respect every animal they kill for the food it provides? Vegetarianism/veganism generally doesn't apply to survivalist situations. And what do you mean by "addicted to eating meat"?

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  • [quote]So he's strictly speaking about things like Native Indians who take time to reaper every animal they kill for the food it provides?[/quote]...No? You don't have to be a Native American or whatever to be doing that, to be showing respect or modesty or humbleness for the animals that are providing you with energy.[quote]Vegetarianism/veganism generally doesn't apply to survivalist situations.[/quote]...Exactly?

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  • I said "things like". Just using it as an extreme example. So my point still stands because nobody in developed society has any need for meat or dairy. So if he does consume dairy he couldn't justify it with that reasoning. And the addicted to meat thing?

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  • Edited by Verbatim: 2/14/2014 11:52:39 AM
    Well, he also smokes, so, you'll have to excuse him for not being perfect. You don't always have to subscribe to your own philosophies, as long as you genuinely believe what you think and realize fully that what you are doing is insidious. And I know he's not happy about his smoking. Yes, most people are addicted to meat, in the sense that they'll be extremely uncomfortable if they don't eat it for extended periods of time. It's a pretty simple idea...

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  • Smoking doesn't usually infringe on other living things. [quote]You don't always have to subscribe to your own philosophies, as long as you genuinely believe what you think and realize fully that what you are doing is insidious.[/quote]Sure, but then you shouldn't be pushing those philosophies onto others. Not attacking this guy because I know you aren't able to speak for him here but if he consumes mass produced dairy with his beliefs he is either ignorant or a hypocrite. [quote]Yes, most people are addicted to meat, in the sense that they'll be extremely uncomfortable if they don't eat it for extended periods of time. It's a pretty simple idea...[/quote]You're stretching the term addiction to its limits, and regardless it has no weight as an excuse. When you're infringing on other living things for personal gain, claiming addiction doesn't make you any less deplorable.

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  • Edited by Verbatim: 2/14/2014 12:24:05 PM
    [quote]hypocrite[/quote]This is a word that gets tossed around ALL the time, and people seem to think that being a hypocrite is the worst thing you can be when in an argument or debate. I really don't see why. I feel like I just explained earlier why being a hypocrite doesn't matter all that much. It only matters if you aren't conscious of your hypocrisy. It isn't inherently something negative, hence, something worth pointing out. [quote]You're stretching the term addiction to its limits[/quote]...And? I mean, you know what hyperbole is, right? Jesus. I don't understand why every little thing I say is so difficult to understand for some people here. Most people can read into what I say just fine without having to point out, "Oh, you used a figure of speech I'm not familiar with there, let me just focus on that instead of what you are actually saying". [quote]When you're infringing on other living things for personal gain, claiming addiction doesn't make you any less deplorable.[/quote]And nobody said otherwise. By the way, I fail to see why you even bring up this subject anyway. It has... Literally nothing to do with anything he's talking about in the video I posted.

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  • [quote][quote]hypocrite[/quote]This is a word that gets tossed around ALL the time, and people seem to think that being a hypocrite is the worst thing you can be when in an argument or debate. I really don't see why. I feel like I just explained earlier why being a hypocrite doesn't matter all that much. It only matters if you aren't conscious of your hypocrisy. It isn't inherently something negative, hence, something worth pointing out.[/quote]If you don't practice what you preach, you obviously don't put as much value into what you're preaching as you'd like to believe. Going against your philosophies at the supposed expense of self-loathing isn't good enough. It demonstrates a severe disconnect between logic and emotion. And knowing what you do is hypocritical and choosing to do it anyway? That's much worse than simply being ignorant. [quote]...And? I mean, you know what hyperbole is, right? Jesus. I don't understand why every little thing I say is so difficult to understand for some people here. Most people can read into what I say just fine without having to point out, "Oh, you used a figure of speech I'm not familiar with there, let me just focus on that instead of what you are actually saying".[/quote]Hyperbole is usually used to demonstrate a point, which I fail to see by claiming meat is addictive other than people like to eat it, which reinforces how selfish it is.

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  • [quote]If you don't practice what you preach, you obviously don't put as much value into what you're preaching as you'd like to believe.[/quote]Says who?[quote]Going against your philosophies at the supposed expense of self-loathing isn't good enough.[/quote]Says who?[quote]It demonstrates a severe disconnect between logic and emotion[/quote]How?[quote]And knowing what you do is hypocritical and choosing to do it anyway? That's much worse than simply being ignorant.[/quote]Perhaps in some cases, but most definitely not all of them. Like, wow. This entire paragraph is just asking me to prove you wrong in a million ways. I already gave you one example. I'm a vegetarian at heart, but I still eat meat. I'm a hypocrite. I'm too weak-willed and ill-prepared to make the transition to vegetarianism, because it's such a huge decision, I'm not ready to make it just yet. So... No. That's garbage. A better example of hypocrisy that's worth pointing out is the kind where the person doesn't realize their hypocrisy. So you educate them. If they refuse to see the logic, then you have the worst kind of hypocrite. Conscious hypocrites are the smokers who know smoking is bad for you. Just because they smoke, doesn't mean they support it. They're hypocrites, but not at the heart. They don't actively support smoking. This is why it does not matter in this context. Like, at all. [quote]Hyperbole is usually used to demonstrate a point, which I fail to see by claiming meat is addictive other than people like to eat it, which reinforces how selfish it is.[/quote]It's a tacit justification for their actions. Most people are inarticulate and are unable to explain why they like/dislike the things they do. Try doing it with anyone and see if you don't hear them say something like, "I don't know, I just like it," or "It's just my opinion". It doesn't count if they just say something like, "Because it tastes good". That's not a justification. So, we have to sort of glean it for ourselves. So we use terms to describe what it is we see these people doing to themselves, and the closest comparison I have found is that they are psychologically addicted to meat-eating and therefore will have a difficult time stopping. I would argue that [i]I[/i] am psychologically addicted to meat-eating. Otherwise, making the switch would be easy.

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  • Edited by Pendulate: 2/14/2014 2:17:34 PM
    [quote]Says who?[/quote]Says common sense, in this case especially. If you claim to be against the meat industry but actively support it by eating meat, then you aren't against it enough to garner any respect. There are no 60-40 splits when it comes to having ethics and trying to argue them with validity. If someone can't uphold the standards they're trying to convince others to uphold it is hard to take them seriously regardless of how sound those standards may be. They obviously don't value those standards enough to be a spokesperson. [quote]I already gave you one example. I'm a vegetarian at heart, but I still eat meat.[/quote]Then you aren't a vegetarian in any shape or form. Vegetarianism is a lifestyle adopted to uphold an ethical stance. If you don't adopt the lifestyle you don't believe in that ethical stance strongly enough. [quote]I'm a hypocrite. I'm too weak-willed and ill-prepared to make the transition to vegetarianism, because it's such a huge decision[/quote]It would only be a huge decision because you making it out to be more than it is to justify your continued consumption of meat. I did this myself, until I realized how desperately inconsistent I was being and simply cut meat from my diet. I guess it could be difficult to an extent, but when weighed against the alternative of supporting the horrific exploitative industries it isn't difficult at all. Assuming, of course, that you have a sound moral code. [quote]A better example of hypocrisy that's worth pointing out is the kind where the person doesn't realize their hypocrisy. So you educate them. If they refuse to see the logic, then you have the worst kind of [/quote]That's exactly what I said. Worse to be consciously hypocritical than ignorantly so. [quote]Conscious hypocrites are the smokers who know smoking is bad for you. Just because they smoke, doesn't mean they support it. They're hypocrites, but not at the heart. They don't actively support smoking.[/quote]I should add that it should only warrant condemnation if it negatively impacts another living thing that isn't a willing participant. [quote]It's a tacit justification for their actions. Most people are inarticulate and are unable to explain why they like/dislike the things they do.[/quote]You aren't inarticulate though. You should be able to attempt to justify it more eloquently. [quote]Try doing it with anyone and see if you don't hear them say something like, "I don't know, I just like it," or "It's just my opinion". It doesn't count if they just say something like, "Because it tastes good". That's not a justification.[/quote]Aren't "because I just like it" and "because it tastes good" essentially the same? [quote]So, we have to sort of glean it for ourselves. So we use terms to describe what it is we see these people doing to themselves, and the closest comparison I have found is that they are psychologically addicted to meat-eating and therefore will have a difficult time stopping. I would argue that [i]I[/i] am psychologically addicted to meat-eating. Otherwise, making the switch would be easy.[/quote]Then I don't think you're against the exploitation of animals enough, or as much as you would like to be to achieve an ethical standard you might see as superior. If you truly found it horrific you would be turned off by meat completely. It would no longer taste good to you.

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  • [quote]you aren't against it enough to garner any respect[/quote]No one's asking for your respect.[quote]If someone can't uphold the standards they're trying to convince others to uphold it is hard to take them seriously regardless of how sound those standards may be.[/quote]It's easy for me. Like, if someone tells me that killing people is wrong, I'm gonna call that a good judgement. Then I find out the person who said that was a murderer. And it doesn't change a thing. He's still right. [quote]If you don't adopt the lifestyle you don't believe in that ethical stance strongly enough[/quote]Obviously, I don't agree, and I don't really have much a reason to believe you're right. The "strength" of your conviction is vastly irrelevant to the plain fact that what you are preaching is the truth, or at least, the way to be. [quote]It would only be a huge decision because you making it out to be more than it is to justify your continued consumption of meat. I did this myself, until I realized how desperately inconsistent I was being and simply cut meat from my diet. I guess it could be difficult to an extent, but when weighed against the alternative of supporting the horrific exploitative industries it isn't difficult at all. Assuming, of course, that you have a sound moral code.[/quote]There's also the fact that I do not enjoy any ANY other food group. Which is a personal obstacle. And yes, it does make it a hell of a lot more difficult to switch when eating anything else other than a meat product makes me want to vomit, and I HAVE vomited when attempting to eat a salad. On three separate occasions. You're very glib. [quote]That's exactly what I said. Worse to be consciously hypocritical than ignorantly so.[/quote]That's really not what I said at all, though. I said... >there's a hypocrite >he doesn't know he's a hypocrite >show him that he's a hypocrite >he refuses the evidence >he still doesn't see that he's a hypocrite THAT is what I said. THAT is a worse hypocrite. One who refuses to recognize his hypocrisy. I actually think most conscious hypocrites are absolutely harmless. They either have an agenda or are like me, and have been trying to get out of their hypocrisy. You think trying = failure. Anything other than a full transition is failure. Which is, like, evil. [quote]I should add that it should only warrant condemnation if it negatively impacts another living thing that isn't a willing participant.[/quote]Convenient. [quote]You aren't inarticulate though. You should be able to attempt to justify it more eloquently.[/quote]It walks like an addiction, it talks like an addiction, it's an addiction. That's the metaphor. Are you gonna call metaphor usage inarticulate? Because that would be pretty silly, too. Either way, semantic bullshit is just that—bullshit. I'd rather not harp on the nature of words. It's of no consequence whatsoever. [quote]Aren't "because I just like it" and "because it tastes good" essentially the same?[/quote]They're on the same level of platitude, yeah. [quote]If you truly found it horrific you would be turned off by meat completely. It would no longer taste good to you.[/quote]I'm glad you ended with maybe the silliest thing you've said so far... I stopped drinking soda last year, because caffeine is some serious shit. I know it's harmful to me. If I were to have some of that swill now, though? Are you telling me I wouldn't enjoy it? My taste buds will translate the flavor to that of excrement, because I had a revelation? Are you serious? Oh, but drinking soda falls under your neat little "no un-consenting third party" loophole, that's right...

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  • Edited by Pendulate: 2/14/2014 3:50:17 PM
    [quote]It's easy for me. Like, if someone tells me that killing people is wrong, I'm gonna call that a good judgement. Then I find out the person who said that was a murderer. And it doesn't change a thing. He's still right.[/quote]As I said, the standards may be sound. It isn't a matter of not respecting the standards, it's a matter of not respecting the person who advocates them. Obviously I respect the standards of vegetarianism, regardless of any hypocrites who may advocate it. [quote]Obviously, I don't agree, and I don't really have much a reason to believe you're right. The "strength" of your conviction is vastly irrelevant to the plain fact that what you are preaching is the truth, or at least, the way to be.[/quote]Beside the point. If you don't believe in what you preach strongly enough to uphold it yourself you aren't a good spokesperson, especially to people who are undecided on the subject. People respect your opinion more if they respect you. Is that illogical? To an extent, but again beside the point. If you want to go preaching, you better practice what you preach. Otherwise keep your opinions to yourself and let more consistent people do the talking. [quote]There's also the fact that I do not enjoy any ANY other food group. Which is a personal obstacle. And yes, it does make it a hell of a lot more difficult to switch when eating anything else other than a meat product makes me want to vomit, and I HAVE vomited when attempting to eat a salad. On three separate occasions.[/quote]Firstly, if you ate nothing but meat you'd be dead. So there are obviously other foods you can tolerate. Secondly, there are meat substitutes that may not be quite as appetizing but they are certainly viable options and are advocated by vegetarians as a good alternative. Thirdly, the above two points are irrelevant. You're still trying to justify what is really an unnecessary luxury at the expense of an animal's pain and suffering. You don't need meat to survive, and being vegetarian/vegan doesn't mean "eating salads". There are plenty of non-meat foods available and you've survived this far so you must be able to keep some of them down. It simply boils down to whether you find an animal's life and wellbeing more important than satiating your taste buds. [quote]You think trying = failure. Anything other than a full transition is failure.[/quote]Not at all. If you try to stop eating meat and relapse, you simply do not value the life of the animal enough to sacrifice the taste of meat. Nothing more to it. [quote]I should add that it should only warrant condemnation if it negatively impacts another living thing that isn't a willing participant.[/quote][quote]Convenient.[/quote]How so? You're entitled to do whatever you want with your own body, as long as it doesn't impact others against their will. [quote]It walks like an addiction, it talks like an addiction, it's an addiction. That's the metaphor. Are you gonna call metaphor usage inarticulate? Because that would be pretty silly, too. Either way, semantic bullshit is just that—bullshit. I'd rather not harp on the nature of words. It's of no consequence whatsoever.[/quote]That's fine, I just think addiction is a card often pulled as an attempt for justification, which it isn't in this case. At all. In the context you used it, it seemed like you we're using it as justification. But if you weren't, that's fine. This isn't worth branching off on anyway. [quote]I'm glad you ended with maybe the silliest thing you've said so far... I stopped drinking soda last year, because caffeine is some serious shit. I know it's harmful to me. If I were to have some of that swill now, though? Are you telling me I wouldn't enjoy it? My taste buds will translate the flavor to that of excrement, because I had a revelation? Are you serious?[/quote]That isn't comparable at all. Firstly you're reinforcing my point in that if you're not disgusted by it, it won't be unappealing. You aren't disgusted by soda, you're deterred because it isn't healthy. So if you're okay with eating meat, you aren't against the industry as much as maybe you'd like to be. If you were totally against it and found it absolutely disgusting and horrific, the appeal of meat would vanish. You may still enjoy the taste (I do) but the awareness of what you are consuming would put you off completely. If not, then you still have a disconnect. Secondly, you aren't disgusted at the soda because it wasn't made through disgusting methods. If it was made with piss, would it taste as good? Or human bone char, would it taste as good? Meat is the flesh of a once sentient being that was subjected to pain and suffering before being slaughtered for monetary gain. I'm disgusted by that, therefore I'm disgusted by meat. [quote]Oh, but drinking soda falls under your neat little "no un-consenting third party" loophole, that's right...[/quote]You say loophole as though to downplay it, but again if there are no unwilling participants affected by your actions then there is nothing ethically wrong with it.

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    I'm vegetarian (Well Pesca) but I won't touch Rennet or Gelatin. It's no different from eating Meat in my opinion.

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  • My diet is essentially vegan because I cannot support the dairy industry as it currently is, which is just as despicable as the meat industry. Cows are artificially inseminated so they produce a steady supply of milk and their calves are taken away at birth to be slaughtered or raised for milk. When the cows become too exhausted to produce milk efficiently they are sent to the slaughterhouse. Also, artificial insemination consists of restraining the cow within a contraption commonly known as a "r.ape rack" (a term coined by the inventor himself) and having a human insert their arm into their rectum to reposition the uterus and insert a metal instrument into the vagina. A healthy cow has a life expectancy of 25 years but due to the constant strain the cows are put under through constantly being pregnant makes them useless after 4, and they are sent off to be slaughtered. I used to be a dairy consuming vegetarian but after I learned about it there was no way I could, in good conscience, continue to consume it. The industry is just horrific and I'd even advocate slaughter above it just to put them out of their misery.

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    Sadly I've been aware of how... -blam!-ed up... the dairy industry is for a while, unfortunately I'm not healthy enough to cut out Dairy as well, which does not sit well with me at all. Although, we mostly get milk from the local farms (Perks of living in the countryside) where they don't treat the cows like shit, although it's still not great. Hopefully at some point I can at least cut back more on it, but I've already got joint and bone/muscle problems which I don't think are helped by not eating meat. It's a bitch of a choice for me really, I can't cut out those foods that remain because then I'd be completely screwed but consuming them is a stain on my conscience.

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  • What nutrients are you talking about? You can get calcium from soy/almond milk and b12 from supplements/fortified soy milk.

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    I suppose there is that, I might look into it some more although I have been fairly preoccupied with doctors appointments and bloodtests lately to be able to put much thought into my diet or any potential changes. Things should quieten down soon though, I can probably look into it more then.

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