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2/4/2014 10:25:44 PM
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Thinking about it, I'm okay with Eisenburg as Luthor. The idea of a CEO has changed since Luthor was first introduced, with younger people like Elon Musk or Larry Page being the most prominent business leaders in the world. Why can't Luthor be an up and coming genius like them? A young guy with infinite ambition and the intelligence to achieve those goals can be a good Luthor. Not to mention, Eisenberg is typecasted as an Everyman character often, someone like you or me. Luthor should be an Everyman, with his pro-human ideologies. Someone relatable.
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    from the mind of roberto and the inferior mind of myself: [quote]Hey. Typing this up. Will be in parts, so bear with me. Not done yet. Will say when I am. Hope you enjoy it! The Role of Alfred in Man of Steel 2. Was talking to my friend again about Man of Steel 2 casting Eisenberg and Irons as Luthor and Alfred. While my (unoriginal) thoughts on Luthor are basically summarized in that article I linked you, my friend and I came up with some pretty interesting discussion on Alfred's role in Man of Steel 2, and how he may be a lynchpin to a prosperous friendship between an insane genius and an alien god... Nate and I were wondering about the logic behind choosing Jeremy Irons for Alfred. I don't know much enough about him as an actor to really put up any argument either way for whether he'd fit as Alfred, and neither does Nate. But the conversation eventually evolved into discussing his role in the movie and story at large. First let us look at what Alfred is and represents in the Batman family, and by extent of his influence over Batman himself, the DC universe at large. Alfred is the man who raised Batman after his parent's untimely death, who fed him, taught him, and acted as much of a mentor too him as a father. But I think most importantly, Alfred is the only anchor to a normal life Batman has. Everything else in the Dark Knight's life is related to combatting the forces of evil, and in so doing, only serves to feed Batman's controlled insanity. Alfred pulls him back from drifting over the edge; he is essentially the Cortana to Master Chief's Batman, always there for the hero and as such is much of a hero himself. The hero's savior and guide is common in literature, like the aforementioned Cortana or Sam for Frodo in Lord of the Rings. Alfred fills that position. In his case, he gives Batman's life a sense of normality whenever he returns to Wayne Manor from fighting crime and evil every night. Now who is Batman, the man Alfred's life revolves around? Specifically, who is Batman in Man of Steel 2? In Man of Steel 2, Batman is described as being older, cynical, and weary, fast approaching "too old for this shit" territory. He is embittered by a life of constant pain and hardship, death and loss, and what does he have to show for it? The world, specifically Gotham, is presumably much the same as it was when he started. There is no peace, there is still rampant crime (because Gotham) and Batman has by this point fought it for years, even decades. Perhaps most importantly, should rumors be true, Robin now hates him. They have had a falling out resulting in them splitting from each other. Who does this cynical, jaded Bruce Wayne have left now to count on? Alfred, his rock. His anchor to his family and normal life. And in times of the threat of emerging alien gods walking among us in secret, where a battle with a mere two of them can flatten whole cities, Batman is going to need an anchor to normality more than ever (and a few beers most likely). So what role will Alfred play in Man of Steel 2, specifically? Well, in my opinion, Alfred is gonna die. Let's look at the position these characters are in. Batman is much older now in this one than he was in the Dark Knight, probably by decades. That would mean that Alfred is most likely older as well; he'll be pushing it closer to death at his age, and Batman, obsessed as he is with saving people, already jaded as he is, is now going to have to face the one thing he can't save people from: time. Bruce Wayne is going to have to watch his mentor and father die, all over again. His one true friend and one true family will succumb to his death as all humans inevitably do. What does this mean for Batman? Let's look at who this man is. Batman is a man whose entire life revolves around fighting evil except for Alfred. Without that anchor he has no one left in the world who truly understands him and believe in him, especially now that Robin hates him. Sound familiar? It should. Because this is the story of Superman in Man of Steel. In reverse. Just how it should be with Superman's idealistic opposite. Kal-El in Man of Steel was a man who never had anyone believe in him until he met Lois, which gave him the strength to reveal himself to the world. Batman, in this story, is a man who grew up with someone always believing in him, always there for him, always supporting him, and now that he's dead. He's alone. He is now where Kal was at the start of Man of Steel 2. Now we all know that Batman/Superman's relationship will be a strained one, even antagonistic. We also know right from the start that Batman and Superman are opposites in this film (as it should be). One is young, naïve, and hopeful, while the other is old, weary, jaded and cynical. I've said before that I foresee Batman being Superman's mentor in coming films given his experience fighting evil, but I feel the dynamic between the two should go beyond mentor and apprentice and get into real friendship (as it should be). How? Well, real friends work off of each other, expand upon each other's ideas. This entire article you're reading spawned from a conversation I had with my room mate as an example. They should mentor each other, a two way street. Superman should take advice from Batman and realize that he's not all powerful and can't fix everything anymore than Batman can, and Batman needs a dose of hope in his life, especially after Alfred's death. But they're enemies in this movie aren't they? How can they be best friends? Answer: Alfred and Lex Luthor. Lex Luthor is the true threat here, but it stands to reason that Bruce will be partnering with him at the start to rebuild Metropolis and probably run a smear campaign on Superman for trashing their city (and one of his satellites). Bruce has no reason to like this "ideal of hope," especially not old grumpy Bruce. But maybe Alfred does believe in him. Maybe he sees Superman as someone trying to help but he lives in a world made of cardboard and doesn't recognize his power, or at least how to use it properly. Either way, with Alfred's death, Bruce is going to feel totally alone. A man of his genius and skill and status with no family, no friends and no hope. Who could possibly understand him, who could he relate too, who could he turn too? The only other living thing on earth who has walked his path, and come out the better for it. Superman. I foresee Batman feeling a kinship with Superman after he gets to know him more throughout the film, maybe in his own investigations of him. After Alfred's death, Batman now realizes that Superman and he aren't that much different after all. Superman has been lost in the world his entire life with no one truly supporting him and his powers until he met Lois (because let's be honest, the Kents weren't very good parents, which I think is stated best when Kal thinks they were worried the truth would come out). Kal's life is just as screwed up as Batman's, both orphans, both lonely, but in reverse order, with Superman discovering the one person who believes in him, and Batman losing the one person who believes in him. Upon this realization, Batman will recognize Luthor for the villain he truly is, realize how he's trying to hurt Superman (probably by targeting his family) and will in all likelihood be very, very angry with the man. From this kinship, the first seeds of one of the most famous friendships of all time, will be sown.... /rant Well those are my thoughts on Alfred's role and only a little bit on Luthor at the end there. ______________________- really intriguing! your points about alfred's relationship to batman seem on the dot. even more impressive are your points about luthor [the eisenberg casting actually seems pretty interesting now]. an alfred death in batman vs. superman would be incredibly cathartic to all involved. and it'd also give batman a damn good reason to be in the watchtower or with the league instead of at the batcave... however, i disagree with the notion of batman and superman being the best of friends by the end of the movie. i've always said that the best way to approach a superman/batman film would be to have them realize their conflicting ideologies are what makes them the best possible team, and that the justice league movie would be a conglomerate of said ideologies. the characters are important, sure, but what's more important for the league, imo, is what they represent and where they're willing to go. imo, batman and superman should still be "quasi-enemies" by the end of the movie. it's just both sides should walk off with a hint of realization of "man, this guy has a damn good point." for batman it would be his realization that superman pours his heart and soul into fights, and for superman it would be to realize that a calculating approach would be the best for some scenarios as well. a pivotal moment i always envisioned was a scene where batman has superman under capture after outsmarting him and delivers a speech to him about how his emotive fighting style stopped him from actually thinking out the risks of his plans. in that way, batman vs. superman could have circumvented the problem of man of steel's massive amount of destruction: after he realizes that batman is right, he comes to terms with the fact that if he just took a step back and planned like batman did, he would have been able to save a lot of those 5000 dead civilians. he's naive. he wants to fight everything "on his own terms," and batman shows him right then and there that his ideology is flawed...[/quote]

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    [quote]later on when batman is brought to his knees in a straight up fight and clark ends up beating him despite every plan and piece of kryptonite he throws at him, he realizes the benefits of clark's fighting style: whereas batman fights AGAINST evil to try and contain the situation, superman fights FOR good. he's not focused on absolute control of his situation like batman is [which is ironic given which one of them is the "god"], just on saving people through his own fiery determination. by the end of the movie, when and if they meet in the middle and part ways, i don't want them to be on the best of terms. i want them to continue being bitter towards each other, but all the same i want them to realize the most important theme of the dc cinematic universe [or at least what would be the most important theme had i written it]: conflicting ideals lead to the betterment of your society. think about man of steel and how krypton was a massive allusion to plato's the republic or brave new world. you had a krypton with no form of choice. in an absurdist world [which is seen throughout the rest of the film with superman's forays into earth], there was one planet that decided to force order and singular thought processing. krypton doomed itself, much like the society in the republic did. the power of choice, by extension, the power of conflict were underscored in krypton, and that was what led to the kryptonians' demise. of course, i'm not saying there WASN'T conflict in krypton [we see a pretty damn massive one in the first 3 minutes of the movie], i'm just saying that, by the creation of predetermined roles in society, the power of conflicting roles, ideals, individuality, and existentialism is remove within castes. but with superman, we have the CLEAR absurdist representation of human society. indeed, man of steel in its entirety predicates itself on the theme of "every choice exists aside from the choice not to choose." superman is completely swamped in difficult choices in man of steel. from jonathan's death to giving himself up to the military to choosing between krypton and earth to killing zod, superman just can't get a break. he comes face to face with the realm of the absurd, and even he is helpless in its wake. [of course, seeing a titular character like superman in that position is bound to cause outrage. "WHAT THE HELL YOU CAN'T DO THAT TO SUPERMAN HIS MORAL CODE WHAT WHAT WHAT???" yeah. i'm willing to bet that reaction was anticipated. man of steel was an exercise in cathartic deception: employing revisionism in the place where everyone would least expect and respect it. and i love the movie for it.] but my point is, if man of steel is all about the absurdist world and the shortcomings of a "republic" style government and society, the justice league should be the exact opposite of that: a society completely burrowed in conflict and a society completely accepting of the absurd. and in batman vs. superman, both characters should, imo, end with their first steps towards recognizing that.[/quote]

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  • Batman and Superman always have been that odd couple. Darkness, vengeance, fear, history, and subterfuge versus light, justice, hope, future, and inspiration. They are almost polar opposites, but they complement each other. Their differences are downplayed usually but when they are together it really stands out. "Closer you are to the light, the darker your shadow becomes" and all that. I think that is why they are the important parts of the Trinity, with Wonder Woman filling in the role of Lepidus or Crassus. Hopefully they manage to get theme across in the film, but here I am thinking they didn't actually think MoS out that thoroughly and they just happened to produce a thematic marvel.

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    [quote]Batman and Superman always have been that odd couple. Darkness, vengeance, fear, history, and subterfuge versus light, justice, hope, future, and inspiration. They are almost polar opposites, but they complement each other. Their differences are downplayed usually but when they are together it really stands out.[/quote] absolutely, and it's something the sequel should capitalize on. but, perhaps more importantly imo, it's something the entire dc cinematic universe should base itself on. the power of conflict, and the absurdity of being a hero in our world. no matter how powerful you are, in the end everyone is on your level. [quote]"Closer you are to the light, the darker your shadow becomes"[/quote] O_O <3 [quote]but here I am thinking they didn't actually think MoS out that thoroughly and they just happened to produce a thematic marvel.[/quote] [url=http://bigthink.com/rightly-understood/reading-plato-with-the-man-of-steel]might wanna take a look at this![/url]

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  • [quote][quote]but here I am thinking they didn't actually think MoS out that thoroughly and they just happened to produce a thematic marvel.[/quote] [url=http://bigthink.com/rightly-understood/reading-plato-with-the-man-of-steel]might wanna take a look at this![/url][/quote] I usually just assume that the scriptwriters did not intentionally put that much depth into their work because it is an awful lot of symbolism that would be lost on 99% of the audience. Also because I underestimate the screenwriters.

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    it was lost on 99% of the audience, sadly :/ most people just call the movie hamfisted for the christ parallels, but completely ignore the... platonic juxtaposition XD

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  • I think instead of being a charismatic, charming, pinnacle of humanity, public billionaire, he'll be a reclusive genius aspie sociopath with a hateboner for Superman. You know, like real billionaires.

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    argh i wish i could post the conversation roberto and i had about the movie...

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  • Do you not have a link in your notification inbox?

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    no he had an analysis typed up in there. i'm not sure if he wants to out it yet or not.

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