originally posted in:Secular Sevens
The roles we adhere to are purely voluntary. You make this thread as if we're forced to pertain to a designated role determined solely by our sex. Which is untrue by the way.
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Um, trans* individuals face a lot of discrimination and violence for not following the traditional gender of their sex. Society, as a whole, forces many trans* individuals to conceal themselves if they don't want to face unwarranted hate.
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Edited by cxkxr: 10/24/2013 6:40:55 PMThey aren't forced to do anything... If they're trans, they voluntarily adhere to that. If they feel like they want to conceal they're trans bc of what others might say, that is also voluntary. What some people might think about trans is also voluntary. Unless there are gender laws, it's all voluntary.
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Edited by Ryan: 10/24/2013 6:45:04 PMPlease define "force". If you want to be really pedantic, then the only thing that you are actually forced to do is to die, but that is hardly a useful definition. I also want to point out that you are severely underestimating the problems that trans* individuals face. They have a lot more to worry about than just "what others say". They are victims of countless hate crimes, which often include physical violence, simply for acting against societal gender norms.
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How people treat each other is irrelevant honestly.
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If you honestly believe that, then I cannot take you seriously.
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You're getting off topic from the thread, is what I'm saying.
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It hardly is irrelevant. If acting a certain way (e.g. going against traditional gender roles) places you at risk for unwarranted violence/crimes, and you act otherwise to protect yourself, then you are being forced to act differently (e.g. to follow traditional gender roles). Any reasonable definition of "force" would include such situations.
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Edited by cxkxr: 10/24/2013 7:18:21 PMNo ones forcing them to not be trans dude... Sure, people might pressure them to not want to be trans, but it's still their choice whether they want to conceal it or not. Just bc I might get slapped, or have been slapped, for touching a girls breast unwittingly, doesn't mean I'm forced to not touch her breasts. There's just outside pressure to make me choose not to. Social norms are adhered by a society voluntarily. No one's forcing our society to have the norms that we do, it's adopted by choice by the people who make up said society.
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Edited by Ryan: 10/24/2013 7:28:01 PMIf the outside pressure is great enough so that you choose to change your behavior for fear of your well-being, then you are being forced to change your behavior. I hope you understand that any reasonable definition of force does not require you to not have any choice in performing the forced action. If that were the case, then one of the [i]only[/i] things that you're forced to do is to eventually die.
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Sure.
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This.