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originally posted in:Secular Sevens
originally posted in: What evidence is there for God(s)
7/24/2013 8:03:19 PM
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The fact that when you pray to them they actually perform miracles and give you special abilities.
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  • Like what? If you just mean the shrines and amulets, I've said before that the ability of people to enchant objects is well established.

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  • Edited by Lord Keksworth: 7/24/2013 10:29:22 PM
    Yes, they can enchant certain items that give certain abilities when worn or held. Can they enchant a shrine so that it gives certain abilities when you kneel in front of it and praise the gods, though?

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  • I don't see why not.

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  • It's all but stated that the Divines are giving you their blessing when you pray to their alters, and it's already been established that their daedric counterparts sure as hell exist, so how is it so hard to accept that nine gods [i]who are an important part of the backstory laid down by the writers who have a tangible effect on the Elder Scrolls-verse and already have evil counterparts that as previously stated are proven to exist since you toady around doing favors for them[/i] are in fact real in-story?

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  • Of course it would say they give you their blessing - I'm sure you could pray with just about any religious figure of authority and they'd say their god blesses you, but that doesn't make it so. I should also add that the daedra aren't [i]evil[/i], they're entities with a different conception of morality (more specifically, I suspect they have none, and only act on their own desires, but I'm not sure) that don't really fit into mortal ideas of right or wrong. Anyway, again, my main point is to ask how we know they have a tangible effect. If we knew that their roles in the backstory were true, that'd be fine, but I'm not convinced we can really know that. Not everything you read is true, even in fictional universes - there are plenty of different accounts of the Aedra throughout the games that flat-out contradict each other, for one thing. Honestly, just try making sense of the list of gods pages on the UESP wiki.

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  • [quote]Of course it would say they give you their blessing - I'm sure you could pray with just about any religious figure of authority and they'd say their god blesses you, but that doesn't make it so.[/quote] If I actually got cured of any and all diseases and ailments I may have had at that point and suddenly gotten better at swordfighting/marksmanship/running/learning, then yeah, I think that would be proof enough that I had a deity's blessing. [quote]I should also add that the daedra aren't evil, they're entities with a different conception of morality (more specifically, I suspect they have none, and only act on their own desires, but I'm not sure) that don't really fit into mortal ideas of right or wrong.[/quote] Yeah, I thought about that, but didn't really feel like changing what I wrote. [quote]Anyway, again, my main point is to ask how we know they have a tangible effect. If we knew that their roles in the backstory were true, that'd be fine, but I'm not convinced we can really know that. Not everything you read is true, even in fictional universes - there are plenty of different accounts of the Aedra throughout the games that flat-out contradict each other, for one thing. Honestly, just try making sense of the list of gods pages on the UESP wiki.[/quote] If the writers say they exist, then they do. Of course maybe it was left ambiguous on purpose, but if you ask me, the fact that you're magically cured of disease when you pray to them is proof enough that they exist in-story.

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  • [quote]If I actually got cured of any and all diseases and ailments I may have had at that point and suddenly gotten better at swordfighting/marksmanship/running/learning, then yeah, I think that would be proof enough that I had a deity's blessing.[/quote] You're forgetting that there are all kinds of things that can do that. We have spells that can cure disease and make you better at all of those things. Hell, you give me a few days on Oblivion and I'll whip you up a character that can cure the diseases of anybody who were to pray to them. [quote]If the writers say they exist, then they do.[/quote] There are two concepts I think are important here. Firstly, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author]the author's dead[/url]: Their intent doesn't really matter; Secondly, the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator]unreliable narrator[/url]: something's not necessarily so just because you encounter exposition that tells you it is.

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  • Edited by Lord Keksworth: 7/25/2013 1:06:12 AM
    [quote]You're forgetting that there are all kinds of things that can do that. We have spells that can cure disease and make you better at all of those things. Hell, you give me a few days on Oblivion and I'll whip you up a character that can cure the diseases of anybody who were to pray to them.[/quote] Yes, but that's somebody who specifically casts a spell to cure you. This is finding a random alter in the middle of -blam!-ing nowhere, praying to it, and getting cured. And getting some other effect, because one of the gods likes that you prayed to them. If that ain't proof, nothing is. [quote]There are two concepts I think are important here. Firstly, the author's dead: Their intent doesn't really matter; Secondly, the unreliable narrator: something's not necessarily so just because you encounter exposition that tells you it is.[/quote] First off, I'm pretty damn sure there's more than one writer for the Elder Scrolls series. And if the main creative mind [i]did[/i] die I'm also sure there would be somebody to replace him/her to keep the (extremely popular and influential) franchise going. Second, the unreliable narrator trope mainly applies to first-person books where what the narrator (i.e., the main character) only explains what they see or understand, which may or may not be entirely accurate to the situation. Playing through the Elder Scrolls games, seeing things with your own eyes and having it all explained to you, and experiencing firsthand the effects of praying to an alter to the Divines isn't something that can be taken in more than one way. I think you're looking just a tad too far into this. Here's something for you: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor]Occam's razor[/url]. "The simplest solution is often the correct/most accurate one." So, either: A) Somebody preemptively scattered various alters to various gods all over Tamriel, then cast several spells on those alters to give strange benefits for differing lengths of time while simultaneously curing all diseases to the person praying, as well as having those spells activate as soon as somebody prays to the alter they cast the spell on. And they have no way of knowing when, exactly, some guy will strut along, stop at the alter, and pray, so the spell could logically wear off long before anybody makes it there, all to make it look like the gods grant you their blessing when it's all just a needlessly elaborate hoax. Or B) You pray to the gods, and they actually grant you their blessing. I mean, really, the second choice isn't even far-fetched. Magic exists in the Elder Scrolls-verse, that's obvious, and we already have proof the daedra exist, and they're the aedra's opposite number, and [i]they[/i] seem to think the aedra exist. So, knowing [i]magic, reality-bending dragons, people with dragon souls in place of human souls, and already-established gods[/i] exist, why not the main Elder Scrolls pantheon? It's not like you can look at everything I just listed and blow the aedra off because of lack of tangible proof. Besides, maybe some other guy met the aedra and the protagonists of the series didn't, eh? I mean, most people in the Elder Scrolls-verse don't meet the daedra, so they have no real proof of them either.

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  • Edited by Seggi: 7/25/2013 1:31:15 AM
    [quote]Yes, but that's somebody who specifically casts a spell to cure you. This is finding a random alter in the middle of -blam!-ing nowhere, praying to it, and getting cured. And getting some other effect, because one of the gods likes that you prayed to them. If that ain't proof, nothing is.[/quote]Then nothing's proof. We've already been over the fact that items can be enchanted. Keep up. [quote]First off, I'm pretty damn sure there's more than one writer for the Elder Scrolls series. And if the main creative mind did die I'm also sure there would be somebody to replace him/her to keep the (extremely popular and influential) franchise going.[/quote] No... lol, you really missed the point there. The idea of the "death of the author" is more abstract: it's that once the creative work leaves the author's hands, it belongs to the audience, not to its creator. The intention doesn't really directly affect the way we analyse it, so even if the intention of the writers for TES was to create a world where these Aedra are real, unless that's what they gave us it's not really relevant. [quote]Second, the unreliable narrator trope mainly applies to first-person books where what the narrator (i.e., the main character) only explains what they see or understand, which may or may not be entirely accurate to the situation.[/quote] My point was that you can't take for granted what somebody tells you through exposition as being true within a work of fiction. [quote][/quote] To the rest of your post, the most pressing point I have to make is that you've constructed a false dichotomy. The scenario without gods isn't necessarily a hoax, there are countless way there could have come to be so many magical artifacts scattered all over the landscape, and the power of the magic needed to create them is far from inconceivable - we have gates that only open if you're a member of the mage's guild, ayleid artifacts from thousands of years ago that still work pretty much as they were created, and all manner of spells that can do that. Creating those artifacts is very much within the realm of possibility for the people of Nirn. [quote]I mean, really, the second choice isn't even far-fetched.[/quote] No, it's not far-fetched within the ES universe but neither is that they don't exist. [quote]Besides, maybe some other guy met the aedra and the protagonists of the series didn't, eh?[/quote] Maybe that's true, but 'maybe' isn't evidence. We're talking about what we know, not what other people might possibly know. One valid point that I think you raised is the daedra's perception of the aedra. Could you elaborate on that? Do you have anything more specific?

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  • Edited by Lord Keksworth: 7/25/2013 2:18:25 AM
    [quote]Then nothing's proof. We've already been over the fact that items can be enchanted. Keep up.[/quote] Items can be enchanted to give you certain benefits when worn or held. Has it ever been shown, stated, or implied that sitting in front of an enchanted object can give you its benefits? And don't you have to stay in constant contact with the enchanted item in question to retain said benefits? [quote] No... lol, you really missed the point there. The idea of the "death of the author" is more abstract: it's that once the creative work leaves the author's hands, it belongs to the audience, not to its creator. The intention doesn't really directly affect the way we analyse it, so even if the intention of the writers for TES was to create a world where these Aedra are real, unless that's what they gave us it's not really relevant.[/quote] [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod]Word of God[/url]. If the writers say the aedra exist, write the story as though the aedra exist, and show the intention of having the aedra exist, then the aedra exist, no questions asked. [quote] My point was that you can't take for granted what somebody tells you through exposition as being true within a work of fiction.[/quote] By that logic you may not even be the Dragonborn in Skyrim. I mean, just because somebody tells you you're the Dragonborn doesn't mean you are even when there's overwhelming evidence to the contrary. [quote]To the rest of your post, the most pressing point I have to make is that you've constructed a false dichotomy. The scenario without gods isn't necessarily a hoax, there are countless way there could have come to be so many magical artifacts scattered all over the landscape, and the power of the magic needed to create them is far from inconceivable - we have gates that only open if you're a member of the mage's guild, ayleid artifacts from thousands of years ago that still work pretty much as they were created, and all manner of spells that can do that. Creating those artifacts is very much within the realm of possibility for the people of Nirn.[/quote] Yes, and some of those items were made directly by aedra or daedra. Hell, the daedra even give you some of those things personally, so is it really that out of the question to think the aedra didn't just leave their stuff around for somebody powerful enough to come find them? [quote]No, it's not far-fetched within the ES universe but neither is that they don't exist.[/quote] After getting magical items named after them, receiving mystical benefits from praying to them, and meeting their daedric counterparts, I think it can be assumed that they do exist within the Elder Scrolls-verse. The writers make the story with the aedra involved to make sure the player knows that they do. [quote] Maybe that's true, but 'maybe' isn't evidence. We're talking about what we know, not what other people might possibly know.[/quote] After hearing rumors of magical items and the dead walking and dragons and ghosts and lost technology and missing magical items and disturbing things that happen in a house where a flippin' [i]god[/i] hangs out that all happen to be true, pretty much anything that "might" be true is damned near [i]guaranteed[/i] to be true in the Elder Scrolls. [quote]One valid point that I think you raised is the daedra's perception of the aedra. Could you elaborate on that? Do you have anything more specific?[/quote] I don't have a specific example of a daedra mentioning or interacting with an aedra, but the fact that the daedra exist could be seen as evidence, or at least implication, that the aedra exist, seeing as how the two are closely related lore-wise. And, since we already know gods exist in the Elder Scrolls, and because your prayers are answered at alters, [i]and[/i] you receive aedric stuff at certain points in the games, we can reach the conclusion that they exist. If that's not enough, Alduin was specifically stated to be an aspect of Akatosh, an aedra. Since it was specifically told to us so we'd know this, and since we have literally no reason to assume otherwise after it was specifically told to us so we'd know this, I think we can safely say the aedra, or at least Akatosh, exist. [i]And,[/i] as I said above, if the writers say the aedra exist (and because they're mentioned in every game and we interact with beings closely connected to them, the writers pretty glaringly do say that), then they do. Period. End of.

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  • Your stupidity enrages me.

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  • You didn't form a valid argument, so I must be doing something right.

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  • Alternative explanation: you're doing a lot of things very, very badly.

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  • Hmmm...then my argument should be easy to shoot down, eh?

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  • To a reasonable person, yes.

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  • So, clearly you must not be a reasonable person, because you've been doing a whole lot of [i]not arguing[/i].

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