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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.

Edited by Happy Jack: 6/7/2013 8:18:41 PM
64

Destiny's Biggest Issue

There is but one concern, well, my biggest concern with Destiny thus far is the inclusion of Aiming Down the Sights, ADS for short, or the ability to look directly down the sights of your weapon. ADS is not wholeheartedly a flawed mechanic, but used in the wrong type of game it can be game-breaking. You may all be familiar with this mechanic, but a refresher. By ADS of your weapon, your accuracy is drastically increased and your movement speed is drastically decreased. When not ADS, or Hipfireing, the opposite is true, you have good movement speed and poor accuracy, and by poor, I mean you only really have hope a hitting a target at point blank. Now this is great for tactical shooters, (generally with longer engagement distances, such as ARMA, Red Orchestra, Ghost Recon, etc.) as it forces the player to move cautiously and use cover, considering when you stop to shoot you are a sitting duck. If Destiny ends up being a shooter of this nature, then great, I have no problem with ADS, but I think most of us are expecting something else. Where the ADS mechanic falls flat on its face is fast paced games with shorter engagement distances. We need not look any further than our beloved CoD. Lets look at an encounter from a few perspectives, imagine two players run around a corner and meet each other and proceed to engage. [b]Option 1[/b], they both hipfire, they both have good movement speed so they can try and strafe, but considering the terrible accuracy of their weapons, the winner of this encounter is decided primarily by luck, with an edge given to the player with a weapon more suited for this situation, skill is hardly a factor here. [b]Option 2[/b], they both ADS, meaning the two players are standing more or less still shooting at one another, given the short range they hardly need to aim, and assuming they both ADS at the same time, this encounter is won by having the better or faster killing weapon. Again skill is only a factor is one player goes for a headshot, but considering the other player is already shooting at them, headshots have to be achieved extremely quickly. [b]Option 3[/b], one player decides to start shooting immediately and hipfires, the other takes time to ADS. The player that is hipfireing only needs to hit a stationary target, the ADS has better accuracy but has to take the time to ADS. Either the guy that is hipfireing gets lucky and wins, or the ADS player wins with an easy shot, neither requiring much skill. What you might ask, is a good way to get an advantage in this type of encounter? Well if you've played CoD you might be aware of it. If you are ADS before you see your enemy, you have a clear advantage, but doing so means you can hardly move, so what is the solution? Something we all love, Camping. Long distance is not much different, the only real option being to ADS, meaning near stationary players are shooting at one another, lowering the skill gap tremendously. Now obviously we can compare this to a game without ADS, such as Halo, and we all know how the encounters go, it's about footwork and aim, trying to get your enemy to miss while having better aim, meaning the winner is determined by skill and weapons, with a touch of luck, sure. So while ADS might be a great mechanic for some games, when it's implemented into a fast paced game with short engagement distances and players running around the map, it doesn't work in my book, resulting in a game about luck, weapons, or annoying tactics. However, assuming Destiny is a fast paced game, there are way in which ADS can work. [b]Option 1[/b], get rid of the standard features of ADS, meaning ADS works just like it does in Halo, your accuracy doesn't change, nor your movment speed, the changes lies in your zoom, optics, and FoV. [b]Option 2[/b] I like this one, get rid of the accuracy penalty, meaning hipfire doesn't suck, and instead add a recoil bonus (reduction) to ADS. The movement penalty can remain. This is great as you can engage an enemy and any distance with hipfire, but if you want to zero in on an opponent that is far away and get a faster kill you have to ADS, which can get you a faster kill but puts you at a disadvantage as you are now a sitting duck. Additionally, the guy you are shooting at can return fire (not as effectively as you of course) while still trying to get cover. Well, that was a bit of a read, but the implementation of ADS is a bit of a concern, and I want to have a discussion about it with you all. Bungie is a great developer, and I believe they will implement it correctly, but there is still a bit of a fear that it can really hurt the game. Please, I would love to hear your thoughts.
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  • Great post, Happy Jack. I'm also curious about the ADS functionality in Destiny. From their E3 demonstration, it looks like the burst fire rifle that Joe Staten was using has significantly less kick while fired ADS. He fired the rifle from the hip a lot, but it definitely did not look very accurate while doing so. It's premature to be making assumptions based on simply watching a brief demo. But I'll continue for the sake of discussion. I agree with you that having accurate hip fire is more fun in fast-paced, arena-style shooters. Accurate hip fire allows players to be deadly while moving and turning quickly. (I say "turning quickly" because usually ADS decreases turn speed. Decreasing turn speed while ADS is helpful because that allows players to aim more easily/carefully, but I'll get into this more later.) But having inaccurate hip fire forces players to be all of the following to achieve accuracy: slow moving, slow turning, and narrow visioned. So, as you said, encounters will mostly boil down to opponents shooting each other while standing almost still. One thing that I enjoy about games with accurate hip fire (Halo, TF2, UT, Quake, etc.) is that I can jump around a corner, turn quickly, fire from the hip, and still be as accurate as an enemy camping around the corner. Accurate hip fire may seem like a trivial thing, but it changes the entire flow of combat by not penalizing players that move quickly and aggressively. [quote]But, what I noticed for a mere second, the player was strafing with ADS, and I'm happy to report he had a pretty decent movement speed.[/quote] I agree that fast ADS movement is nice, but I don't think it's a total solution on its own. In fact, CoD has fast ADS movement via Perks or weapon attachments. With those Perks/attachments, players can move at normal walking speed while ADS, but they still have slow turning and narrowed vision. The slow turning and narrowed vision forces players to check corners slowly while ADS - encounters still come down to relatively static ADS standoffs. There are other problems revolving around slow ADS turning. I've already stated that slow ADS turning is helpful because it lets players aim more easily. But if ADS is the only way players can accurately shoot, then players are forced to turn slowly to be deadly (unless of course players can independently adjust ADS turn sensitivity and bump it up to be equal to hip fire turn sensitivity). Let's say hypothetically that a player in CoD is trying to shoot a fast-moving object. That player might not be able to turn fast enough while ADS to aim at that fast-moving object (unless that player has set their stick sensitivity very high). In Halo, shooting a driver in a full-speed Warthog isn't a problem for most players - turning while shooting from the hip is easily fast enough to track the Warthog. Scoring a killing headshot on a Warthog driver with a DMR while firing from the hip? Tasty. TLDR: accurate hip fire gives players options so that combat doesn't devolve into the same stale ADS face offs. This isn't an argument against having ADS in Destiny. ADS is good (also, Halo has ADS, it just seems like a different thing because it doesn't show a weapon model with optics and it toggles on/off very quickly). I simply think nerfing hip fire limits combat options. Also, this post is a commentary on shooters in general. I don't know what kind of gameplay Bungie is going for in Destiny, and they'll do what's best for the kind of experiences they want to create. Thoughts? Thanks! P.S. once again, great post, Happy Jack.
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    • Great post and ideas and reflections here. I must say I agree with you and like option 2 if it where implemented in Destiny. But the E3 demo shows the warlock player shooting hipfire several times and, I might be wrong, but to my keen eyes it looks almost like its abit "Haloesque" in that hipshooting. So, again I might be wrong, but I dare to speculate that perhaps we will see something similar to Halo and in your option 2 in this brilliant post.
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    • It looks like it is a hybrid between circle strafing and ADS. Though the circle strafing seems to have less range and expand the reticule more.
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    • ADSing is not a game breaking mechanic for destiny. Online not working as seamlessly as they explain is a game breaking mechanic. ADS is a choice. If you don't want to do it learn to play without it. It's there and it fits in the game as I don't want to hip fire at someone who is 100 yards away. That isn't realistic at all.
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      • That's a first person shooter game issue, not really a substantial issue with Destiny.
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      • The issue for me on the player level is getting used to that radar in the top left of the screen Im so used to halo being on the bottom of my screen.
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      • Actually Destiny's biggest issue is them being PS4's slave.
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        • [u]Community's biggest issue.[/u] Calling Destiny's biggest issue a year before release and with 12 minutes of gameplay.
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          • So I got some more potentially good news. I was watching a recent stream with the same session but played differently, so I wasn't what we saw during Sony's conference. But, what I noticed for a mere second, the player was strafing with ADS, and I'm happy to report he had a pretty decent movement speed. Still no idea on how the accuracy is improved in ADS, but ADS could potentially be cosmetic, or offer subtle adjustments to movement speed and accuracy. Again, we need to see and hear some more info before we know anything for sure, but I'm fairly confident we are far away from something along the lies on CoD.
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          • ADS will be a good change for a Bungie game. Plus we don't know if all guns have ADS
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          • Any FPS enthusiast/enjoyer will completely dissagree with you. ADS is a) Realistic for people who want to hit their targets b) Becoming a standard feature in FPS games and c) Is common sense. Bungie have needed to include ADS for a long time now but couldn't with Halo without an uproar.
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            • Well, there's your gameplay. What do you guys think? Hipfire in the very least is useable at short range, but there is a good amount of bloom, I think ADS might be a little more important that I had hoped.
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              • Edited by True Underdog: 6/11/2013 11:40:03 AM
                Hip firing looks like it may be a viable option at short - mid range, which it should be. ADS will yield higher accuracy at all ranges but hip firing looks like it might have its place. I don't see it being much different than zooming in for long range. I get the concern and it might be something you have to get used to but it looks fine to me, based on the gameplay we saw. Also, it might be a good idea to reserve judgement on competitive play and how it will handle til we see the competitive gametype.
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              • Edited by Zayah117: 6/11/2013 3:22:44 AM
                The OP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS7nqwGt4-I
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                • How about we wait untill we see actual gameplay, like on Monday, before we start talking about "Big Issues"?
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                • Games without ADS tend to have better enemies, in my opinion, you can't deny that games like Halo and Half-Life have more interesting and varied enemies than games like CoD and Battlefield. I don't care if people have gotten used to ADS and hate reticles because they got destroyed in Halo or Counter-Strike multiplayer. ADS games have terrible enemies compared to games with classic shooting mechanics.
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                  • I'm sorry, but Destiny isn't based primarily around PvP. And Borderlands, Fallout, and various other FPSRPG's seem to include ADS and it works just fine. And with PvP, I'm sure there isn't going to be a problem with ADS. I don't think Destiny is going to have arena style PvP, it will probably be more of a 'tactical' shooter.
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                  • I want to clarify this with everyone. We are talking about two different types of shooters here. We have Arena style shooters (Halo, Quake, etc) and "tactical" (excuse this term for lack of a better one) shooters, often with ADS (ARMA, Red Orchestra, etc). One is not better than the other, and I personally enjoy them both, but they play differently; Arena shooters being more about reflexes and aim, and Tactical shooters being more about, movement, positioning, and tactics. Personally I think we run into problems when developers try and combine the two. Games like CoD started as a more tactical shooter and turned into an Arena shooter, and I think it has become a poor combination of the two, as discussed earlier. Obviously we have seen very little of Destiny, and to discuss it on this level is going to require assumptions. Now I am assuming Destiny is going to be an Arena shooter, much like Halo, in which case, I have reason to be concerned about the inclusion of ADS. I am NOT saying ADS won't work in Destiny, I am attempting to discuss how ADS may or may not be a issue in Destiny.
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                    • Team up with Sony
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                    • Edited by VorTeX7756: 6/7/2013 11:17:47 PM
                      I would want a recoil on larger weapons like a sniper rifle, but that should apply always (scope or not), and you shouldn't be slow when you are looking down the sites or through the scope, or a recoil of automatic weapons, your a guardian, you should be trained to hold your weapon still while aiming.
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                    • Edited by Shark 6: 6/7/2013 4:53:57 PM
                      The maps are going to be 3x3 KILOMETERS. This game will have huge maps and, therefore, is not an arena-type FPS like Halo. Yes, CoD is also an arena-type shooter, but it mixes tactical with fast-paced gameplay. The sights and scopes are also interchangeable, which allows for different uses and aesthetics. Also, considering that this game is also like the Borderlands series (which also uses ADS aiming, and the weapons are interchanging with sights and scopes), it wouldn't make much sense to have different weapons sights and scopes and NOT be able to look through them. I mean, I suppose I could just admire that crosshair on my gun as I try to hipfire a Fallen enemy in the middle of combat, but what good would that do me?
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                    • I use to play cod competitively as well as halo 2 and 3. I am a much bigger fan of ADS. Black ops 2 to me was absolutely ruined because of hip fire accuracy. That game requires no skill and no requirement to aim. Modern warfare 3 was the best cod yet because of the hip fire perk which even with that on was still not giving you bo2 accuracy, but it allowed you to play differently. I like a bit of realism in my games and while it completely logical to hit a target from your hip in real life firing I just don't like it. It is called triangulation aiming by the way. None of it matters when it comes down to servers, hosting, and Internet speeds. Your scenarios only matter based off who is host sadly. All in all I would like to see Ads with moderate hip fire accuracy. Like 10 meters max. Ads makes it feel more real and I think hip fire players are garbage just to throw that in.
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                      • I most enjoy the Halo/L4D style of no ADS, but I recognize that with a game like Destiny, it might be an essential mechanic.
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                      • The point of ADS is to influence a gamers skill have him make smart decisions, be tactical stop running into the heat of battle you will die, be careful about your moves think on your feet. Taking out ADS is a mistake it encourages faster, more dimwitted, skilless gameplay.
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                        • I disagree. ADS is perfectly fine. i would hate if Destiny was like Halo in not letting you aim.
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                          • Bungie is [b]by far[/b] the most capable gaming company to make this game. Don't get ahead of yourself, or Bungie for that matter. Trust them — [i]Be Brave[/i].
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